MNHQ- please address the anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet and in your talk guidelines

[IStandWithPosie]

It has become glaringly apparent there is a persistent and growing anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet in recent years. Not only that but the stance Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the racially offensive posts has been totally inadequate. Repeated calls by Irish Mumsnet users to remove such posts and to take a stand against them have been ignored by Mumsnet HQ. This is in direct contrast to the way those with other protected characteristics have been listened to and had their reports acted upon in such a way as to leave many Mumsnet users afraid to post for fear of deletion or permanent banning. Which has happened. In light of this we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ take meaningful steps to improve awareness of what anti-Irish sentiments are and the types of unacceptable posts we’re complaining about. A review of the posts that have been reported as racist would be a good starting point, and a measure of what mumsnet members collectively consider to be offensive. We also ask that talk guidelines are applied consistently across the forum for all protected characteristics and that racist posts towards or about Irish people are removed immediately.

Furthermore, Mumsnet HQ have asserted their their intention to knowingly continue to use racially offensive language in their talk guidelines The phrase “beyond the pale” dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself. The phrase is rooted in the oppression of the Irish people by the English ruling classes and is offensive to Irish people. Mumsnet HQ have been asked by Irish Mumsnet users to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines. Mumsnet HQ have refused stating “there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context.” This completely disregards the information Mumsnet HQ have that confirm that Irish people themselves find it offensive.
We are asking Mumsnet HQ to apologise for the offense caused by their use of this inappropriate phrase and to remove it from their talk guidelines.

MarDhea Irish travellers are discriminated against for being travellers, not for being Irish.

No, they are discriminated against for being Irish Travellers. The racial epithets directed towards them are sometimes to do with them being Irish and sometimes do do with them being travellers (of which there are different sorts). It's a double whammy.

Irish people who are not travellers also endure discrimination in the workplace and elsewhere for being Irish. For instance, here's a round-up from 20155* of race discrimination cases brought by Irish workers in the UK. For every person who actually goes ahead to bring a discrimination case, there are thousands with similar experiences who don't. Some of us have recounted our experiences on this and other threads.

Stop minimising and pretending it doesn't happen.

I stand with you. I am also offended by the Anti American and Anti Australian sentiments on Mumsnet.

I'm signing.
As a manager, I don't stand for it in my workplace. I have warned and disciplined people who have patronised, abused, dismissed, offended and mocked my Irish colleagues behind their backs, even when those same colleagues didn't want anything doing about it. I did it because I was bloody offended by the words and behaviour directed at them

It helps that I am in disguise - presenting as posh, educated English woman, with a very English surname (unlike my maiden name) - but my parents are Irish (Cork, Kerry) and I know how they, their friends and family members, have suffered because of 'banter' and worse. Being in disguise, I see it and hear it.

I don't want my 'leisure time' spoiled by the same kind of bigotry: I witness that prejudice and bias too much in real life to put up with it during my down time.

I will not collude in silencing the Irish MNetters, by downplaying or trivialising their evidence-based complaints.

I'm with you @Istandwith Good luck!

Thank you Pam. Your words are appreciated here and I hope your actions are also appreciated irl.

I'm Irish and I'm not offended in the slightest. I would rather you didnt put yourself out as representing Irish people.

If this kind of thing bothers you that much then get a hobby.

Being Irish is not a protected characteristic.

Being Irish is a protected characteristic under Equality Act.

No one has put themselves out as representing Irish people. We have put ourselves out as being unhappy with the current level of anti Irish sentiment and HQ moderation of it.

And people have put themselves out saying they are unhappy with your user name istandwithposie. What will you do about it? Or should a thread be started about it?

wrexhamtrans "being Irish isn't a protected characteristic" What a strange thing for an Irish person to say and also you are wrong

Bluntness i do believe you are trying to goad me. You are now stalking me around the forum to do it. I’m not engaging with it on the other thread and I won’t be engaging with it on this one. Report my username if it upsets you. If you mention it again on this thread i’ll be reporting you.

Please feel free

What does IstandwithPosie mean then?
Wrexhamtrans odd post

Some posters on this thread are doing the written version of the thing I get in real life, where someone learns that behind my RP accent/Oxford graduate facade I'm Northern Irish Catholic, and wrinkle their nose and take a little step backwards. It's very obvious how determined some people are to make out that Irish people have a chip on their shoulder by telling them they are never oppressed or discriminated against.

@Shriek It is in support of someone within the self ID debate. If you were on one side you could find it offensive.

You're wrong about the Russian roots of 'beyond the Pale', Xenia. There was a Pale in Russia but the full phrase was never associated with it.

I would be interested to hear how a phrase from Russian or Yiddish arrived in the English language too, given that the first reference to it in print in English predates the establishment of the Pale of Settlement.

I am also really interested in your theories as to the mechanisms by which Russian or Yiddish phrases made their way into English.

It's very obvious how determined some people are to make out that Irish people have a chip on their shoulder by telling them they are never oppressed or discriminated against

I don't think that's very fair Somerville. No one has said they are never oppressed or discriminated against. What was said was the phrase did not have those origins factually and was used by thr vast majority of people globally with no racist intent.

Thank you Bish so its a political statement then, would be the same if I called myself remainer or Brexiteer then?
I'm not sure then, as these things we might vehemently disagree with, but its not actively derisory insult, is it?

There is a huge strength of feeling against the self-ID on many levels, but calling onesself SelfID4me is not attacking anyone is it?
Can't we just listen to what someone has to say, especially when coming from a place of oppression?
I thinkbit s an unfair attack to try to derail the thread over a username, its just doing what the pp was accusing of, so a bit very ironic

It is in support of someone within the self ID debate. If you were on one side you could find it offensive

Posie Parker - not just about self ID, though? About the trans movement in general.
Posted up a billboard - woman - noun - adult human female" and is very vocal in the fact she doesn't see transwomen as women.

The poster upthread has a valid point, as it is offensive to a lot of people.
Where does the offence end? It's a valid question.

The phrase does have offensive connotations Bluntness100.

Whether or not you accept it with regards to Ireland, it has it's etymology in othering of some and putting them outside the bounds of acceptability. The putting of people on the outside of a fence.

This is a current debate though, and not in law that women are not the same as bio men altering male characteristics to present as more female looking/sounding, without penis, etc.
A whole other debate, a huge one. The username is just a reflection of that debate, like the brexit one.
Maybe I don't understand the fuller implications of this, but ppl need to be more sensitive around these things and what I've seen in fact is less!

I stand with you OP. I am not Irish but am married to an Irishman, who has indeed faced bigotry and exclusion living here in Scotland, including having work interviews denied him. I’ve also had to put in complaints at my work over an ignorant co-worker using the term ‘that’s a bit Irish’ whenever anyone did anything stupid. I’m shocked and disappointed that MNHQ have not stepped in on this one. ‘Beyond the Pale’ is hugely offensive. People can argue all day long about where the first ‘pale’ was. It’s irrelevant. When used here in the UK it’s origins are most likely from Irish occupation but that doesn’t matter. If people are stating they are offended by something they feel is a racist attack against them, it should be stopped. I have long noticed anti-Irish sentiment here on MN. It rears it’s ugly head often, along with ignorance of history and Irish politics.

Where did 'having a paddy' come from? I has never equated that to anything Irish, is this to do with a supposed Irish temper or something? If so I see no reason to ever have reason to use it again if this was its entire basis, but the basis of the 'beyond' phrase seems to not be intrinsically and directly Irish, but many applications and therefore not actually about Irish oppression? This is why its important to establish the basis of the phrase.

Having a paddy comes from the racist trope that the Irish have a temper.

It's long overdue for dropping from usage, as yes, racist.
Wrong, wrong, wrong, but the 'beyond' phrase isn't so clear and surely to many younger generations now they have no memory or the awful divisions, the English are attacked for much stereotyping as do all nationalitys, and it needs to stop. All of it.

This is a current debate though, and not in law that women are not the same as bio men altering male characteristics to present as more female looking/sounding, without penis, etc.

The whole denying transwomen as ever being women is a very huge current debate.
People saying they'll never be women, regardless of how much they transition, 'cos biology.
Even though it clearly is offensive to a hell of a lot of people in the trans community, people still on these boards are "free speech, we can say what we like" and refuse to acknowledge they are being offensive.
If we're policing offensiveness (I hope that's a word, if not you know what I mean lol) then where does it stop?