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MNHQ- please address the anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet and in your talk guidelines

573 replies

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 11:03

It has become glaringly apparent there is a persistent and growing anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet in recent years. Not only that but the stance Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the racially offensive posts has been totally inadequate. Repeated calls by Irish Mumsnet users to remove such posts and to take a stand against them have been ignored by Mumsnet HQ. This is in direct contrast to the way those with other protected characteristics have been listened to and had their reports acted upon in such a way as to leave many Mumsnet users afraid to post for fear of deletion or permanent banning. Which has happened. In light of this we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ take meaningful steps to improve awareness of what anti-Irish sentiments are and the types of unacceptable posts we’re complaining about. A review of the posts that have been reported as racist would be a good starting point, and a measure of what mumsnet members collectively consider to be offensive. We also ask that talk guidelines are applied consistently across the forum for all protected characteristics and that racist posts towards or about Irish people are removed immediately.

Furthermore, Mumsnet HQ have asserted their their intention to knowingly continue to use racially offensive language in their talk guidelines The phrase “beyond the pale” dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself. The phrase is rooted in the oppression of the Irish people by the English ruling classes and is offensive to Irish people. Mumsnet HQ have been asked by Irish Mumsnet users to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines. Mumsnet HQ have refused stating “there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context.” This completely disregards the information Mumsnet HQ have that confirm that Irish people themselves find it offensive.
We are asking Mumsnet HQ to apologise for the offense caused by their use of this inappropriate phrase and to remove it from their talk guidelines.

OP posts:
Thymeout · 05/11/2018 15:53

Op - it doesn't anger me. Exasperates me, yes. For reasons already given. Where does it end? Not in a good place, that's for sure.

Giantbanger · 05/11/2018 15:53

My user name refers to a large firework. Not a gangbang and I have asked MNHQ if they could edit that post that refers to me as gangbanger as it is disgusting. I expect they won't, but my name is not and never has been gangbanger.

IStandWithPosie · 05/11/2018 15:59

Where does it end?

With goady fuckers being deleted. With people who were unintentionally offensive becoming more aware.

Not in a good place, that's for sure.

Less racism or stereotyping of nationalities, fewer jokes at a nations expense sounds good to me.

OP posts:
Antigon · 05/11/2018 16:01

Catholics are not being run down on streets for attending their place of worship or having to employ security guards for their nurseries. Irish people do not face the same discrimination in job applications as black or Asian minorities. They are not abused on public transport or told to go home when they speak their own language. They don't run after you shouting Paddy on the street.

I agree with this. There is something self-serving about the obsession on this thread with 'beyond the pale'.

Thymeout · 05/11/2018 16:04

Giantbanger - I know it hasn't gone away. That's one of the reasons I'm worried about Brexit. But the scale of the violence is nothing like it was before the Good Friday Agreement. And in the rest of the UK, racists and bigots have bigger fish to fry.

IStandWithPosie · 05/11/2018 16:12

There wasn’t an obsession about “beyond the pale”

There is an issue with a level of anti Irish sentiment on MN, part of that was MNHQs use of the phrase “beyond the pale” in their talk guidelines about appropriate language. In asking MNHQ to address the overall problem we also asked them to remove that phrase from their guidelines. Because that’s part of addressing the problem.

Other posters who objected to this request massively derailed the thread and made it about that one phrase. Implying this was the only issue we have and insisting again and again that we explain ourselves, and when we did, told us we were wrong. Repeatedly. It was not us who had the obsession with that phrase.

OP posts:
Giantbanger · 05/11/2018 16:14

I started a thread in site stuff about anti Irish sentiment and that phrase wasn't even mentioned until about 4 days in. So for me, it was never only about that phrase, it is about a general attitude of anti-Irish sentiment on the boards and some is subtle but it's there - there were two particularly grim threads that prompted me to start the thread in site stuff.

MarDhea · 05/11/2018 16:18

Irish people do not face the same discrimination in job applications as black or Asian minorities.

That's not how discrimination works. The correct frame of reference is whether Irish people face discrimination in job applications relative to white British people. They do: Irish Travellers, in particular.

They are not abused on public transport

I have been.

They don't run after you shouting Paddy on the street.

Not "Paddy", but "fucking Irish" amongst other slurs referencing my national origin, yes.

thyme, you know nothing of what Irish people experience in the UK.

Also, you're conflating Irish and Catholic (another stereotype?). I'm Irish. I'm not catholic. It didn't help.

librarylover53 · 05/11/2018 16:19

"Fatal assaults" thyme in the context of Ireland?! Are you actually for real? So deeply offensive to those of us who have lost family and friends due to such fatal assaults (which haven't completely disappeared even with the cessation of the Troubles).

Xenia · 05/11/2018 16:26

Most of us never give Ireland a second thought and use beyond the pale as its russian roots. I have not seen any anti Irish sentiment. I have seen some Irish people clearly very upset and angry but that must be because of other issues not on here.

There are plenty of Irish people in London in all kinds of jobs. I have never seen irish discrimination in recent years in my own working life.

WitchesHatRim · 05/11/2018 16:29

Are you actually for real? So deeply offensive to those of us who have lost family and friends due to such fatal assaults (which haven't completely disappeared even with the cessation of the Troubles).

Many lost people in The Troubles. Including me.

Giantbanger · 05/11/2018 16:32

You clearly didn't see the threads then Xenia?

Giantbanger · 05/11/2018 16:33

Fatal assaults haven't stopped in Northern Ireland - there are groups on both sides who are still carrying them out.

IStandWithPosie · 05/11/2018 16:36

Oh please do stop Xenia. The people here are not very upset and angry due to other issues. You know the point of this thread. You don’t have to have witnessed the issue to accept it happens. No-one is buying your well worn faux innocence rubbish. You’ve played that card far too often for it to have chance of being believed.

OP posts:
IStandWithPosie · 05/11/2018 16:37

I have been on threads with you before Xenia where these very issues were discussed. Going back years. You can’t claim ignorance now when you’ve been part of the discussion in the past.

OP posts:
Giantbanger · 05/11/2018 16:39

It's actually pure racism to dismiss and belittle people's actual lived experience.

MarDhea · 05/11/2018 16:46

Xenia has form. Now that it's been pointed out for the lurkers, I wouldn't bother engaging further.

Swanhild · 05/11/2018 16:51

There are plenty of Irish people in London in all kinds of jobs.

Yes, I am one of them.

I have never seen irish discrimination in recent years in my own working life.

Bully for you. Let me assure you that (a) the fact that Irish people work in London and (b) that you are unaware of it does not mean it does not exist.

I regularly experience stereotyping and ignorance in the workplace. Last week I had to ask a colleague to reflect on why I might not be best pleased to have a far from ideal tech situation in a lecture theatre PC and overhead projector needed for a public lecture wrongly set-up described as 'a bit Irish'. Yes, I work at a university, and the person who said this was a fellow-academic. Miked-up and in front of a large crowd.

This is one tiny example. I was at a research supervision training course a few weeks ago and a senior member of our doctoral college, on discovering I had previously taught at a specific Irish university, did a cod-leprechaun accent while describing his recent visit there as an extern. Again, in public, in the middle of a training session of academics.

I am not a retiring person, and have no issue with calling people out on this. I am also a senior academic, with award-winning research and an Oxford doctorate under my belt, yet I frequently encounter the 'thick drunk superstitious Paddy with pigs in the kitchen' stereotype among people who do not have the excuse of ignorance.

Swanhild · 05/11/2018 16:53

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Shriek · 05/11/2018 16:56

I don't think we have to 'know' as we can't know how it feels but we do need to listen, and hear what's happening and I'm shocked. We cannot know better than those on the receiving end, and its not a competition of who's having it the worst. It's all wrong and bad experience.
However, I am not sure about that phrase being anti Irish, just because it stems from lots of sources, and there are always going to be cultural ans language cross-overs. In the future Irish-brisith relationships are different, generations now have not experienced the pre-good Friday agreement, and cannot carry it forward

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 05/11/2018 16:58

I would not dream of telling someone that I know more than they do about their lived experience when I do not share that lived experience - that would be the height of arrogance.

That’s like a man saying he doesn’t think discrimination against women exists, because he has never experienced it.

Thymeout · 05/11/2018 17:09

library-lover - you're twisting my words. I made a distinction between the racial/xenophobic violence happening today to Muslims, Jewish and Polish people in mainland UK and what happened in the past during the Troubles. Obviously, the Troubles were more than 'fatal assaults'.

MarDhea Irish travellers are discriminated against for being travellers, not for being Irish. Roma suffer the same prejudice.

As for the rest, we'll have to agree to disagree.

JaneJeffer · 05/11/2018 17:19

Most of us never give Ireland a second thought** why post on this thread then?

I have seen some Irish people clearly very upset and angry but that must be because of other issues not on here this doesn't even make sense

JaneJeffer · 05/11/2018 17:20

Sorry bold fail there, should read:

Most of us never give Ireland a second thought why post on this thread then?

I have seen some Irish people clearly very upset and angry but that must be because of other issues not on here this doesn't even make sense