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MNHQ- please address the anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet and in your talk guidelines

573 replies

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 11:03

It has become glaringly apparent there is a persistent and growing anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet in recent years. Not only that but the stance Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the racially offensive posts has been totally inadequate. Repeated calls by Irish Mumsnet users to remove such posts and to take a stand against them have been ignored by Mumsnet HQ. This is in direct contrast to the way those with other protected characteristics have been listened to and had their reports acted upon in such a way as to leave many Mumsnet users afraid to post for fear of deletion or permanent banning. Which has happened. In light of this we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ take meaningful steps to improve awareness of what anti-Irish sentiments are and the types of unacceptable posts we’re complaining about. A review of the posts that have been reported as racist would be a good starting point, and a measure of what mumsnet members collectively consider to be offensive. We also ask that talk guidelines are applied consistently across the forum for all protected characteristics and that racist posts towards or about Irish people are removed immediately.

Furthermore, Mumsnet HQ have asserted their their intention to knowingly continue to use racially offensive language in their talk guidelines The phrase “beyond the pale” dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself. The phrase is rooted in the oppression of the Irish people by the English ruling classes and is offensive to Irish people. Mumsnet HQ have been asked by Irish Mumsnet users to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines. Mumsnet HQ have refused stating “there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context.” This completely disregards the information Mumsnet HQ have that confirm that Irish people themselves find it offensive.
We are asking Mumsnet HQ to apologise for the offense caused by their use of this inappropriate phrase and to remove it from their talk guidelines.

OP posts:
SilentIsla · 04/11/2018 20:10

Get a grip, Noviceoftheweek. How dare you try to dictate what other people’s concerns should be. Your attitude is deeply annoying.

theymademejoin · 04/11/2018 21:30

@Noviceoftheweek - It does nothing but trivialise what I, and so many other black women, experience every day.

Does that mean that if those who are victims of homophobia, or islamophobia, or anti-Semitism, or sexism, complain about it, they also trivialise your experience? How about the racism black men suffer? Would them complaining about it trivialise your experience as you get the double whammy of racism and sexism?

Racism, or any other form of bigotry, is wrong. The fact that group A get it harder than group B does not mean that bigotry against group B is acceptable. It's not Discrimination Top Trumps.

frecklemcspeckles · 04/11/2018 21:44

Actually I'm now signing up. Having lived in Belfast all my life I normally know that the best plan is not to put your head above the parapet most of the time.

But having just seen an innocuous thread asking for tourist options for Belfast include mocking our accent, calling a city that has come from an incredibly troubled past to be vibrant and amazing "dirty and grey" and someone believing that a couple of people being rude to her once in Belfast was "bigotry" against English people and "inevitable given their history" I've just reached my limit.

People are bloody rude worldwide on occasion. Its a fact of life. But apparently experiencing a couple of rude people in Belfast on ONE day trip ONCE is inevitable bigotry. And not remotely what the OP asked about.

Enough is enough. MNHQ have to see this for what it is.

youknowyourself · 04/11/2018 21:49

What is mumsnet doing about it then?

mathanxiety · 04/11/2018 22:00

I see you still think you're right about the meaning of the phrase, Bluntness, and that is a pity because you are dead wrong.

There is plenty of documentation of the meaning and the origin of the phrase. Your problem is that you refuse to believe any of it. That is a pity because it makes you look like someone clinging to privilege and ignorance.

mathanxiety · 04/11/2018 22:06

Can we add "Irish twins" to the list?

IStandWithPosie · 04/11/2018 22:13

It’s a definite yes from me on that one math, although expect the onslaught of “my grans irish and she says it’s fine” or “how is it offensive? I’ve got Irish twins and I’m not offended” Hmm

OP posts:
Giantbanger · 04/11/2018 22:22

Yes from me too.

therewillbetime · 04/11/2018 22:28

This multiplied by 100:

Lighten up OP - have you considered a hobby?

CraicMammy · 04/11/2018 22:33

I’d never heard of Irish twins until I read about it on here.

To answer your question @youknowyourself, the answer is sweet FA. They’ve said they’ll delete racist posts as fast as they can. But over the last week they have failed IMO to have demonstrated this, or have sufficient insight into what amounts to offensive content.

It is our frustration with mumsnet’s response that gave rise to this thread.

IStandWithPosie · 04/11/2018 22:33

How rude. Do you address that to all of us that collaborated on the OP?

OP posts:
theymademejoin · 04/11/2018 22:35

@mathanxiety - I see you still think you're right about the meaning of the phrase, Bluntness, and that is a pity because you are dead wrong.

The origin of the phrase isn't really relevant. To most Irish people, the pale is the pale in Ireland. The fact it is offensive to many Irish people is no different to homosexuals finding the term faggot offensive, despite it originally meaning something completely different; or a black person being offended by the saying "calling a spade a space".

Language evolves. The pale, in Irish vernacular, has negative connotations. The attitude and actions of the British towards those who lived outside the pale were appalling. Use of the term evokes folk memories that are negative for a lot of Irish people in the same way the term "calling a spade a spade" does for black people. Is that not sufficient reason to show sensitivity to people's feelings and not use a term they find offensive?

Topazwithpearls · 04/11/2018 22:35

#misefreisin

mathanxiety · 04/11/2018 23:02

That is exactly what I am saying, theymademejoin.

However, Bluntness is disputing the origin of the phrase and basing her denial that it could be offensive on her obfuscation, so I think it is important to make sure that there is no doubt about the origin of the phrase, which is the concept of 'two nations', one superior (and obv one inferior). The concept actually predated the fence - it was the reason the fence was erected. The fence remains the symbol of the concept.

planechocolate · 04/11/2018 23:07

Racism, or any form of bigotry, is wrong. The fact that group A get it harder than group B does not mean that bigotry against group B is acceptable. It's not Discrimination Top Trumps

Well said theymademejoin
I've found this thread interesting, thought-provoking, frustrating, eye-opening and infuriating in about equal measure, especially as my blood contains a mixture from Ireland, Scotland, Germany and England, in approximately equal proportions.

incidentally, for anyone who thinks that being white and from south east England means that you cannot be discriminated against, try being blonde and from Essex. Or living in London and having a German-sounding surname during WW1.

theymademejoin · 04/11/2018 23:08

@mathanxiety - That is exactly what I am saying, theymademejoin.

Sorry. I got mixed up in who was saying what. That's what I get for skimming.

LittleBittyKitty · 04/11/2018 23:17

I'm Scottish. We get ridiculed on a pretty regular basis here and IRL. Deep fried mars bar, anyone? The Jocks and their funny money when in England? I could go on but won't.

I'll step up if I feel someone is being very racist or goady, but honestly, I accept that people are just having a bit of banter 9 times out of 10 and let it go. Could I jump on the professionally offended bandwagon and complain, yes definitely, but really? Life is short, some people are racist and bigoted towards Scottish people. Others are thoughtless, rude and insensitive, but that's their problem not mine and there really are bigger issues to focus our energies on. Most people though are just trying to get along and not deliberately offend anyone. You'll never eradicate racists and bigots, but I don't believe that most people are racists and bigots, even if what they say offends me.

FekkoThePenguin · 05/11/2018 07:37

I got it a lot when I moved to England.

"Oi jock"
"haha"

Unintelligible garbled in a "Scottish" accent
🙄

"you're Scotch!"
"No I'm a person not a whisky"

"Do you have red hair because you drink loads of irrrrnnnnn burrrruuuuuu?" (And many other red haired/pubes jokes)
"fuck off"

"see yeeeee jummy"
"fuck right off"

"och aye the...
"Just fuck right off"

Stressedoverkids · 05/11/2018 09:03

Racism against the Scottish is not acceptable either. I have seen and heard it and called it out when I have.

MNHQ shouldn't tolerate racism against anyone

Giantbanger · 05/11/2018 09:08

Agree Stressed no racism should be acceptable.

Fekko that was completely unacceptable what was said to you and those people should be ashamed of themselves.

Lizzie48 · 05/11/2018 09:34

Any stereotyping is wrong. Some people face abuse for having ginger or red hair. I've never understood why that's a thing, as I've always liked it. (I don't have red hair btw.)

IStandWithPosie · 05/11/2018 09:36

One thing I’m very glad to see on this thread is that absolutely everyone who has mentioned it totally agrees that the phrase “throw a paddy” is unnacceptable. This will be very useful when it inevitably crops up again and people rush to defend its use.

OP posts:
Giantbanger · 05/11/2018 09:37

I am going to report any incidence of "throw a paddy" and I would hope that HaitchQ will delete.

IStandWithPosie · 05/11/2018 09:43

Absolutely. This thread is proof it’s not in dispute that that phrase is unacceptable.

OP posts:
TisMeTheLadFromTheBar · 05/11/2018 10:40

I agree. MN is becoming very racist and intolerant.
Yes from me too.

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