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MNHQ- please address the anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet and in your talk guidelines

573 replies

IStandWithPosie · 03/11/2018 11:03

It has become glaringly apparent there is a persistent and growing anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet in recent years. Not only that but the stance Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the racially offensive posts has been totally inadequate. Repeated calls by Irish Mumsnet users to remove such posts and to take a stand against them have been ignored by Mumsnet HQ. This is in direct contrast to the way those with other protected characteristics have been listened to and had their reports acted upon in such a way as to leave many Mumsnet users afraid to post for fear of deletion or permanent banning. Which has happened. In light of this we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ take meaningful steps to improve awareness of what anti-Irish sentiments are and the types of unacceptable posts we’re complaining about. A review of the posts that have been reported as racist would be a good starting point, and a measure of what mumsnet members collectively consider to be offensive. We also ask that talk guidelines are applied consistently across the forum for all protected characteristics and that racist posts towards or about Irish people are removed immediately.

Furthermore, Mumsnet HQ have asserted their their intention to knowingly continue to use racially offensive language in their talk guidelines The phrase “beyond the pale” dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself. The phrase is rooted in the oppression of the Irish people by the English ruling classes and is offensive to Irish people. Mumsnet HQ have been asked by Irish Mumsnet users to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines. Mumsnet HQ have refused stating “there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context.” This completely disregards the information Mumsnet HQ have that confirm that Irish people themselves find it offensive.
We are asking Mumsnet HQ to apologise for the offense caused by their use of this inappropriate phrase and to remove it from their talk guidelines.

OP posts:
AmericanHousewifefan · 04/11/2018 11:18

Bold fail again. I only put one sentence in bold.

PigletWasPoohsFriend · 04/11/2018 11:23

and I'm sick of the endless posts of (delete as applicable) I'm Irish/ my grandparents were Irish/ my neighbour is Irish/ my uncles girlfriends cat is Irish and I/ they don't find it offensive"

Right so no one is able to have a different view to you then. Hmm

AmericanHousewifefan · 04/11/2018 11:29

Piglet My view is that I'm sick of those posts. Are you saying I can't be sick of something because you think it's ok?

Is this a wider question you are asking? Are you actually saying that if you think the phrase is not offensive then I should not be offended. I should just shut up and leave you alone with your nice phrase?

IStandWithPosie · 04/11/2018 11:43

To clarify a point, as some people have been quite rude to me personally, this thread is not something I thought up over breakfast yesterday morning. This thread came about after discussing with a lot of other Irish MNers on the thread linked in the OP. This has been a problem for many of us for a long time and we’ve reached a point where we aren’t willing to let it slide anymore. This thread was put together by a group of people who have had enough.

OP posts:
PigletWasPoohsFriend · 04/11/2018 11:46

Is this a wider question you are asking? Are you actually saying that if you think the phrase is not offensive then I should not be offended. I should just shut up and leave you alone with your nice phrase?

Ive not said abything about the phrase. I don't like it but others have no issue with it. They are entitled to their opinion.

BrownCowStunning · 04/11/2018 11:54

Signed.

This goes beyond the phrase mentioned, I've been shocked by some of the anti-Irish sentiments I've read on this site. I don't think all of it is entirely intentional, but it's when posters are told that what they've said is insensitive or offensive to Irish people, and instead of learning from it, they try to justify it.

AmericanHousewifefan · 04/11/2018 12:05

That's exactly the point Browncow.

AmericanHousewifefan · 04/11/2018 12:05

As am I piglet.

Havaina · 04/11/2018 12:20

I think Piglet has a point. Saying 'I'm sick of people saying I'm Irish (etc) and I don't find it offensive' is trying to obliquely shut down those saying of that opinion.

Giantbanger · 04/11/2018 12:22

My view is that there's at least a significant minority of Irish people who find the phrase problematic, and given that, it would be "welcoming" to change it.

theymademejoin · 04/11/2018 13:30

I think claiming white people can't be victims of racism is used to justify bigotry and discrimination by people who would never make a racist comment against a
person of a different colour. They know racism is wrong so don't want to recognise that they are racist.

My parents lived in London for a while in the 60's. They remember the signs saying "No Irish" in boarding houses etc. They remember being refused a flat once the landlord realised they were Irish.

I lived in England for a while in the 80's. The vast majority of people were fine but there was often an underlying "jokey" anti-Irish attitude and if you objected, it was because you had no sense of humour. After all, it wasn't racism as I'm white.

I have dealt with English people over the years in work circumstances. There is a level of ignorance on Ireland and the fact that it is a separate country with a complex relationship and history with the UK. I've encountered a (thankfully very small) number of English people who were surprised to discover that Ireland is an independent country. And don't get me started on them claiming our sportspeople as there own when they are performing well.

Just because it doesn't involve pitchforks and torches doesn't mean it's not racism. Just because it's "a joke" doesn't mean it's not racism.

There is a lot of low-level anti-Irish sentiment on mn. Most of it is mild enough but it's still there. It's still offensive and it's still unacceptable.

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 04/11/2018 13:54

If I know that a word or phrase will upset a significant number of people, I will do my best to avoid it - our language is so rich that it isn’t hard to find many different options, to avoid causing upset.

kenandbarbie · 04/11/2018 14:24

I'm English but I live in Ireland. I can tell you that racism against Irish people is alive and well in England. I met my Irish dh in London and we lived there for four years. He was sworn at and called a fucking paddy on one occasion for having on an Irish rugby jersey, he was told he shouldn't be taking pictures in an office building (his job) with that accent as people might think he was up to something suspicious (ie a terrorist) and also told not to speak in his accent at canary wharf as it was suspicious.

Now I live in Ireland I have sometimes had nasty comments about being English/British but that's 'punching up' so it's not the same. We should be ashamed some parts of our history and a reluctance to acknowledge the British have ever done anything wrong contributes to minimizing Irish experiences of racism.

Raydan · 04/11/2018 14:58

If I know that a word or phrase will upset a significant number of people, I will do my best to avoid it - our language is so rich that it isn’t hard to find many different options, to avoid causing upset.

Sensibly put STDG.

Bluntness100 · 04/11/2018 15:15

If I know that a word or phrase will upset a significant number of people, I will do my best to avoid it - our language is so rich that it isn’t hard to find many different options, to avoid causing upset

Sure. But what's your definition of significant. By mine, then as evidenced by this thread a significant amount of people aren't upset by it and think the op is misattributing a meaning.

As there is no documented evidence to prove what she is saying, and mich documented evidence to prove she's wrong, and this then coupled with the fact the overwhelming majority of people do not think the phrase is due to this particular settlement, then why would folks stop using it?

Our language will no longer be "rich" if every time someone attributes an erroneous meaning to something, then announces they are offended due to their erroroneous meaning, that we all then just let those words and phrases fall out of our language, with no one explaining she has got it wrong. I can't see how that's the best way to deal with it.

There is a difference between "this is offensive and this is why" and "this is offensive, this is why I think why, and I'm wrong"

SDTGisAnEvilWolefGenius · 04/11/2018 15:32

I suppose context is key. Without actually going back and counting, the views of the Irish people who have commented here seem to be fairly evenly split between those who find the phrase offensive and those who don’t, so, on balance, I won’t be using that phrase again on MN. I might use it in a setting where I knew there weren’t any Irish people, because I’d assume no-one there would be upset by it.

And I do take your point about the richness of language being diminished if too many phrases become unacceptable because some find them upsetting - but we can, and will develop new phrases and words to replace them. It’s not as if There is a fixed list of words and phrases, so if we cross out too many, we’d have none left.

For example, the N word is widely accepted as being utterly unacceptable, and we have developed new ways to refer to people of colour that they find acceptable.

Noviceoftheweek · 04/11/2018 18:53

I cannot believe this thread is still going.

It does nothing but trivialise what I, and so many other black women, experience every day.

I am furious.

JaneJeffer · 04/11/2018 18:57

It's not a competition Novice

Tessliketrees · 04/11/2018 19:16

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

BoldKitties · 04/11/2018 19:24

Sorry Novice, but exactly how does it trivialise what you experience? Are other people not allowed speak about their experiences?

It's a bit unpleasant to be "furious" because other people dare to speak up about their experiences of being made to feel different, or 'less than', or stupid.

I'm not surprised though. Every time I've read a thread about anti-Irish sentiment on MN, at least one poster has been furious about it. I guess we're supposed to sit down and shut up Angry.

RavenWings · 04/11/2018 19:41

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

Lizzie48 · 04/11/2018 19:45

@Noviceoftheweek

Why does this thread trivialise your experiences? Irish people have also suffered many years of discrimination at the hands of the British, which is the reason why there were 25 years of Troubles in Northern Ireland.

I do know there was a lot of prejudice against Irish people in this country during that time, suspicion that they might be involved with terrorism. Similar to Islamophobia today really.

I'm sure you don't object to feminists speaking about the discrimination they've suffered for being women? And other issues, too, like homophobia? We all have our stories to share.

Why does it have to be a competition?

IStandWithPosie · 04/11/2018 19:51

Why would this thread not still be here novice? It breaches no talk guidelines. It’s a request to MNHQ to address a problem with their website.

OP posts:
Giantbanger · 04/11/2018 19:59

I care about any racism. Any and all racism is wrong. The one is not lesser or greater than the other because the victims are white. That's ridiculous.

MQv2 · 04/11/2018 20:06

"Where do you all live?"

Dublin

So tbf I already think everyone outside the pale is a muck savage

I find the having a paddy one funny because of the knots people will twist themselves in to claim it has nothing to do with the Irish and is just a random name picked out of this air. Bonus points for when it's a poster who will pull up anyone who uses the phrase " mental"