MNHQ- please address the anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet and in your talk guidelines

[IStandWithPosie]

It has become glaringly apparent there is a persistent and growing anti Irish sentiment present on Mumsnet in recent years. Not only that but the stance Mumsnet HQ have taken when made aware of the racially offensive posts has been totally inadequate. Repeated calls by Irish Mumsnet users to remove such posts and to take a stand against them have been ignored by Mumsnet HQ. This is in direct contrast to the way those with other protected characteristics have been listened to and had their reports acted upon in such a way as to leave many Mumsnet users afraid to post for fear of deletion or permanent banning. Which has happened. In light of this we are asking that all staff at Mumsnet HQ take meaningful steps to improve awareness of what anti-Irish sentiments are and the types of unacceptable posts we’re complaining about. A review of the posts that have been reported as racist would be a good starting point, and a measure of what mumsnet members collectively consider to be offensive. We also ask that talk guidelines are applied consistently across the forum for all protected characteristics and that racist posts towards or about Irish people are removed immediately.

Furthermore, Mumsnet HQ have asserted their their intention to knowingly continue to use racially offensive language in their talk guidelines The phrase “beyond the pale” dates back to the 14th century, when the part of Ireland that was under English rule was delineated by a boundary made of such stakes or fences, and known as the English Pale. To travel outside of that boundary, beyond the pale, was to leave behind all the rules and institutions of English society, which the English modestly considered synonymous with civilization itself. The phrase is rooted in the oppression of the Irish people by the English ruling classes and is offensive to Irish people. Mumsnet HQ have been asked by Irish Mumsnet users to remove this phrase from their talk guidelines. Mumsnet HQ have refused stating “there seems to be a general consensus among etymology types that it’s an idiom which has long evolved from its offensive historical context.” This completely disregards the information Mumsnet HQ have that confirm that Irish people themselves find it offensive.
We are asking Mumsnet HQ to apologise for the offense caused by their use of this inappropriate phrase and to remove it from their talk guidelines.

To be clear, 'sub-group' meaning not classified, or less than classified as racism, not yet acknowledged and called for what it is
Nasty racism

It doesn't help of course that there are those "hipster" types who like to jump on the bandwagon and see racism where there isn't any eg Jamie Oliver's Jerk Rice and the latest millenial's hissy fit on Kendall Jenner's hair. I do not agree with policing language and banning certain words or phrases but this thread is not just about using one phrase, Havaina

OK, are you saying being a terrorist is a national stereotype?

As an Irish person who frequents mumsnet I think you are ridiculous. The terms that you take such offence to are widely in use by Irish people in Ireland. For those people who use them as derogatory terms, seriously? Who could care less about what idiots think?

OP Beyond the Pale has fuck all to do with racist connotations other than those you have decided to assign to it.

It refers to a fighting stick in the ground and to continue beyond it was considered 'unsportsmanly' or whatever and in distaste. Like when you're on Barley and someone still tried to tag you.

Fgfs.

Sorry, that was meant for the Op.

Well based on this thread it seems to be - many Irish posters have shared experiences where people have made comments relating to stereotypes of Irish terrorism.

Obviously I certainly don't think it's true and it's clearly highly offensive. You seem to be looking to be offended by me.

There was a recent heated exchange on the use of the word 'fag'. I had no knowledge of any homophobic connotation of that word. I discovered its meaning was something completely different in the states at the same time as discovering a biscuit was called a cookie, and rubbish -trash, car boot - trunk and so on. Another language. We cannot police every word we use. It's the context and intent that matters.

I think a lot of the examples that are being given of endemic racism against the Irish are just national stereotypes that exist for many countries. I'm Scottish - people can't pronounce Gaelic names, they joke about drinking, about the Scottish being tight, kilts, gingers, call us jocks etc etc

If you think that's all we get called, then you've led a very sheltered life. Read the comments on newspaper articles, particularly on political articles regarding Scotland, to find disgusting racism. Here on MN, it's more likely to be dog-whistle racism, where our grammar is incorrect, our names are chavvy, etc. There are a lot of people on here who dislike anyone who isn't from the SE of England and therefore speaks or thinks differently. I can "pass" as I was taught to be an RP speaker so I used to hear a lot when I was in England.

I don't find BTP offensive. (Born and living in RoI).

I'm not so sure of that Havaina as I have heard numerous posters on MN over the years (and especially recently) declare that "Only non whites can experience racism." This is classic gaslighting. I think MN likes to consider itself trendy and right on, but I hav enoticed the subtle erasure of people who experience racism who are black.

First of all, it's of course not true that only non-whites can experience racism (the impact of racism towards white people in a white society is another question).

But I don't think a statement like 'Only non-whites can experience racism' should be deleted as against Talk guidelines. It's an opinion, however ignorant it might be and it needs to be challenged.

@IStandWithPosie can I ask where you're from?

I grew up in Dublin: would use beyond the pale and bear it used in ireland, think of it as a phrase that most people don't know they origin of - though I would say most Irish people do- and have no issue with to use.

By contrast, throwing a paddy is something I've only ever heard used in the UK and I find it v offensive.

A lot of what is being described is undoubtedly ignorant and bigoted, a lot is a lot less clear- for example re: all the baby name comments, my Irish husband has also commented on Friends giving children difficult to pronounce Irish names when they will be raised in the U.K. because he has one and has found it professionally difficult as despite being in a v international profession people really struggle to pronounce or remember it. I don't think it's as straightforward as saying all comments about Irish names are racist - I also think the chav name comments say a lot more about the rampant classism on the baby names threads than anything else.

Ten years in the U.K. and I've come across a reasonable mix of benign ignorance and prejudice towards all things Irish which MN probably reflects: I'm all for calling out both when they occur but I think this thread seems to be assuming offence and intent that isn't always there and conflating examples that should be gotten rid of with Ones many Irish people would do themselves.

I'm Irish, living in the UK since '92...I'm afraid everyone is just getting overly sensitive, the phrase has been used in Ireland for years...let's just get on and move on. I've not experienced any racism at all over the years and I do have a difficult name!!

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a hard to pronounce name. It's not hard to pronounce in Ireland, thai names aren't hard to pronounce in Thailand.
The world has to accept them and move on.
I have worked with many from everywhere, it makes no odds where the culture or name is from you just ask if you need clarification and try not to offend

What about the endless use of Americanisms on here, alot of people argue that it's dominance doesn't matter but arguably culture and identity are tied up with British English, the language variances are important but it is dimissed. Are those people dismissing this racist?

I’m not sure I understand your point, @Goldenbear - are you saying that using americanisms is racist?

shriek I am in my 50's. Fag was an insulting word for gay men. It is not ancient history.

abacucat I would be mindful of my language around Americans, french, Germans, Portuguese, anyone whom I knew to take offence and have offensive meaning for a word commonly used in English for something completely unrelated, like fag, would be to an american. Because a fag is something you smoke in UK the context is different, join me for a fag? Etc. There are many such cross-overs. I would never use that word as a homophobic insult and I do think the difference is entirely clear.

I think that's an important point. Saying fag in the context of a cigarette is fine, using it as a homophobic slur isn't. People's intent when they use certain language matters. 99% of people who say "beyond the pale" aren't at all trying to be offensive.

I agree that there is a lot of anti-Irish sentiment on MN. For example, threads about Irish baby names where people are told that their choice of Irish name is stupid, ugly, unpronounceable, ridiculous, spelled strangely. I remember a thread where the OP was told all of the above. When she clarified that she was Irish, living in Ireland , she was still told that it was an ugly name that no-one would be able to pronounce.

For me, the worst thing was after the Marriage Equality referendum. When any Irish posters posted about their joy at it passing, they were rapidly shut down. Lots of "how dare you celebrate this when you still don't have legal abortion in your country". I butted heads with so many people over that. There were so many deeply unpleasant posts directed at Irish people. I engaged in so far as I could. However I also reported one post to MNHQ. That post was deleted on the basis of it being extremely anti-Irish. Said poster then got very cross at being deleted.

I am shocked that this goes on, and glad it's being raised. Clearly many think their behaviour is fine!
I don't, and I don't understand it, but I don't need my mind changing.
Do the talk guidelines encompass all-comers? Whatever nationality?

I'm Irish and find the phrases "having a paddy" and "beyond the pale" offensive.

I've said this on MN and was told both times that I shouldn't be offended and on one thread was basically told to be quiet.

I have lived in Ireland for 45 years and have never come across an Irish person who wasn't offended by these phrases.

It's amazing that on threads like this so many unoffended Irish people come out of the woodwork. Where do you all live?

Bluntness100 Sat 03-Nov-18 11:56:40
But you can't just make stuff up and attribute meanings to phrases or words that are incorrect then claim anyone who uses that phrase is racist by your erroneous definition.

Nobody is making stuff up about the phrase 'beyond the Pale'. The phrase was actually used in the legal documents of the time (late medieval/early modern period) establishing the limits of English civilisation, which was in English eyes synonymous with English rule.

The Pale was a physical ditch but long after that had been absorbed into the earth it remained as a state of mind enabling separation of Ireland into two castes. The concept of separation of two cultures or two nations in Ireland, protestant/British/rational/progressive on the one hand and Catholic/Irish/irrational/mired in superstition and ignorance - was always hierarchical. It was this state of mind that inspired the treatment of the starving Irish by the British administration during the famine of the 1840s.

I think a lot of posters here need to educate themselves on the history of the term. While it may have branched out somewhat from its origins, the fact remains that the fence delineating the border within Ireland at a certain period of time was the original Pale, and the phrase therefore made its way into the English language not from Russian or Yiddish (the Pale of Settlement existed from 1791 to 1917) but from an earlier period in English history.

As Somerville states, this original meaning is still in use today in NI.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pale#History
FYI.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Pale#/media/File:The_Pale_According_to_the_Statute_of_1488_edit.jpg
Map.

www.historyireland.com/early-modern-history-1500-1700/the-english-palea-failed-entity/
This article is worth a read, for those interested in history.
...to be English conveyed certain rights and privileges as the king’s subjects (whether born in Ireland, Wales or England): in the Pale, discriminatory legislation against ‘the king’s Irish enemies’ was actively enforced. And given the frontier context—two nations, laws and cultures, and a pervading rhetoric of difference—the Palesmen were highly sensitive to their English identity, because to be English was to be free and civilised, whereas Irishness was synonymous with servitude and savagery. It is, in any case, a nonsense to talk about ‘Anglo-Irish subjects’: there was no such legal category. Second, during the later phase of Tudor expansion, English incomprehension of the refusal of that ‘stubborn, rude and most barbarous people’ to embrace the benefits of ‘English civility’ so magnanimously offered helps to explain the more brutal treatment of ‘the wild Irish’ that followed.

I personally don’t find the phrase “beyond the pale offensive”. It refers to part of my country’s history. To me it’s a little like the phrase sending someone to Coventry, a historical context but not aimed at people from that area personally. It recognises the historical context which is clearly terrible but isn’t meant to be derogatory to individuals or groups.

I do find the phrase “having a paddy” offensive as it’s about a characteristic national stereotype and reinforces that pejorative stereotype.

I remember clearly when I’d lived in London for about 6 months I heard it for the first time used by a woman I worked with. I said to her that I found it a bit racist. She took real issue with it pointing out that as she was Asian she couldn’t possibly be racist. I asked her if she knew much of the history of how Irish people were portrayed over the years in Britain and she did not. But still maintained that the phrase and therefore her use of it was not derogatory in any way and told me I was wrong to find it insulting. That’s when I first experienced the full extent of how ingrained this bias is. I don’t for a second believe this person would have meant to be offensive and in fact has probably experienced more racism than I, but it was the total refusal to understand my point of view abd thd insistence that it couldn’t possibly be racism since she of all people wasn’t racist and the phrase was common in England.

I do think that the post the other day about the writers was offensive but took more issue with MNHQ’s defense, which was a classic example of endemic racism. Particularly the “post colonial” part, given that I and plenty of my compatriots would argue there’s nothing post about it. But more so the shocking levels of ignorance and dismissal that Irish people could possibly have anything to complain about and we just needed to play nice.

I’m not saying that other groups don’t experience racism, of course they do and some groups are definitely more discriminated against but racism against Irish, including white Irish, is alive and well today and is just as systemic as other bias and to suggest otherwise is just wrong,

A thread I was on was deleted but I copied my post (as I wrote it outside of MN and copied it in). I've decided to post it here as I tho k it's relevant:

"Unfortunately, a lot of English people that I know in RL and some on MN (I've been here nearly 10 years** and lived in England for a number of years) will gloss over any atrocities committed by English people in the past.

Other nationalities will feel bad for atrocities committed by their ancestors. Everyone knows that it isn't a modern persons fault that these things were committed but just acknowledging that the acts were wrong would help.

I have been verbally abused in England because I am Irish. I have been treated differently in England once people knew I was Irish and I'm sick of the minimising here and in RL. *
*
This didn't happen (me being called a lazy paddy) a long time ago but the original atrocities did (colonisation of Ireland) and I think Corythatwas hit the nail on the head when they said "the past will be laid to rest when it stops being relevant to the future". "

I hate the phrase "throwing a paddy" and I'm sick of the endless posts of (delete as applicable) I'm Irish/ my grandparents were Irish/ my neighbour is Irish/ my uncles girlfriends cat is Irish and I/ they don't find it offensive"