Brother died intestate - disagreement over his estate

[Miggymoggymugwumps]

My beloved brother died very unexpectedly earlier this year, it was a huge shock and has been very hard to deal with losing him. For background he had a successful career, never married and at the time of his death was single with no dependents. Because he had no children of his own he idolised his nieces and nephews and was a huge part of their lives from the day they were all born. There are 4 of them and they are now all adults with the youngest being 18 and the eldest 32.(2 are mine and 2 are my sisters)

Anyway he always said (as you do at times) that if anything ever happened to him he'd leave something to me and my sister but that the bulk of his estate would be equally split between 'all the kids'. However it is now apparent that he never got around to making a Will and that he died intestate, so his next of kin become the beneficiaries. That is our parents and of course this is totally right and proper. Now everything has been settled his estate comes to a little over £400,000 which is obviously a vast amount.

This is were problems are now creeping in. My Dad who seems to have had a personality transplant now that he's come into money has decided to give the nieces and nephews just £5,000 each. Now I know this isn't to be sniffed at but I can't help feeling that it is a bit stingy bearing in mind just how much inheritance there is but most of all it is absolutely not what my brother would have wanted. Her always said he wanted them to benefit, and mentioned this on many occasions, to me, my sister, our parents, friends and even his next door neighbours. Even at his funeral close friends of his said that is what he wanted to happen.

My Dad says that because he didn't make a Will that the situation is different now and that the kids and us will end up with it all eventually anyway when him and Mum pass away. They are late 70's, and thankfully in good health but obviously may need care in the future which will need to be paid for. Dad says he's going to have their bathroom and kitchen done, have a conservatory, buy a new car and go on nice holidays.

I gently tried to explain that although my brother would have wanted them to enjoy themselves 'on him' and make their lives a bit easier his actual wishes about the nieces and nephews having it were getting forgotten. Dad doesn't seem to want to acknowledge this at all, my Mum agrees with us but can't get through to him either and it's starting to cause friction. If there is a solution please tell me as I just want to do things right by my brother!

Are people really calling an elderly man who has buried his SON “selfish” and “a cock badger”?!

I am really shocked at that

Very sad situation.

Unfortunate that your DB made comments about what would happen to his estate when he hadn’t made a will. Without one no one can know what his true wishes were.

Agree with PPs that your mother is equally responsible for the decision on what to do. Should one or both of them need long term care (one in four people do), that would cost a lot and having that much cash would give them (or whoever had power of attorney) many more options for care.

I don’t think it’s a good idea to hope for inheritance, for oneself or DCs.

Cambaland.

I doubt your 18 yr old will need a guardian as s/he is an adult. Maybe make the older child a guardian?

Otherwise a trust fund might be a good idea too with independent trustees.

But hopefully you will live a long a happy life anyway!

I’m sorry for your loss. It’s not necessarily a solution, but you could look at some family counselling to have someone external help your whole family through this, to help everyone understand each other, and perhaps or perhaps not find some solutions that work for everyone - maybe even with some tax advice for your parents too - there might be eg family wealth advisers who (no doubt for a fee...) would assist all of you. Who knows - but I’d have a goggle.

My Dad says that because he didn't make a Will that the situation is different now and that the kids and us will end up with it all eventually anyway when him and Mum pass away.

I hate it when my dad says this (which he does often - relating to the very large inheritance my parents received last year). He seems to forget just how much care costs and that my grandmother has paid out over £200,000 for residential care fees and obviously that figure is going to keep going up. I can’t see that there will be any savings left and the government will have to step in to pay for her care in the future.

However, I am aware that someone has to be paying for the spiralling costs of care and if it isn’t the individuals using the care, then it will be the tax payer, so either way, I’m paying for it.

Do your parents have a good source of income (pensions/potential to downsize) to see them through their retirement or were they financially struggling and this is why they don’t want to share the money how your dbro wanted?

I do think your mum should be stepping up and making her thoughts on this known, but I can see how she might find this difficult if she has always followed your dads lead on any financial matters.

Yes, I am calling the man selfish.

My mother is the same age. She would never do this.

My inlaws are older. They would never do this.

They would all think it was selfish and not what the deceased relative would hae wanted.

What do you think your Db would have done if he'd been given a terminal diagnosis and told he had only weeks to live? Would he still have wanted all his money, barring a small legacy to his sisters, to go to his nieces/nephews?

Or would he have wanted to acknowledge his love and gratitude to his parents and perhaps think he needed to make up for in cash the fact that he wouldn't be around to help them in extreme old age?

I don't think I'd be expecting the responsibility for my aged parents to fall on my nieces/nephews. I'd be thinking they would most likely tie the money up in property or pay off student debt, so there wouldn't be any over for helping my parents out.

In fact, you and your sister are going to have a much more difficult time now if your dps become frail. Perhaps that should be taken into account.

It's much trickier than it first seems, which is why I think you need an independent adviser to try to take the emotion out of it. Your df is coming across as incredibly selfish, but perhaps he is thinking of what will happen to your mother if he dies/suffers from dementia. He is right that your db's early death does change things.

Inheritance tax will be approx £30,000 minus the funeral expenses.

There will possibly be a a solicitors bill for dealing with probate, however it will be paid from the estate, it is not a considered an expense for IHT purposes

I would guess each parent will inherit somewhere in the region of £180,000.

A deed of variation is normally used to vary a will, can it be used to vary intestate inheritance?

It doesn’t matter what the DF wants it for. He’s admitted he knows it’s not what his son would have wanted, but it keeping it anyway.

Deplorable behaviour.

The OP says, in her OP, that her Dad seems like he’s has a “personality transplant”. Since, you know, his child died...

I don’t think any of us could know what our parents or in laws would do, if they had a similar “transplant” - or to call it by what it is - bereavement

take yes I was wondering if she could but she will be in full time education until 21, does that make a difference? Sorry to hijack the thread!

There is an awful lot of inertia to be got over to write a will. For many people there needs to be some sort of triggering event. For DH and me it was a move abroad then a rewrite when DPiL died (executors).

Therefore I wouldnt see the absence of the will as indicating that DB didnt mean what he had said just that he hadnt got round to writing his will yet.

@Miggymoggymugwumps you describe you DF as having undergone a personality change. Is there any chance that what he is showing are some early stages of dementia? This uncharacteristicly selfish behaviour may be a sign. Not caring what other people think, extravagant spending plans would all give me pause to think. It may be worth discussing with your DM as he could fall prey to reckless 'investment' ideas.

Do your parents have Lasting Powers of Attorney in place? Might be a good idea before your DF squanders the lot (including your DM's share) on a South Sea bubble or the latest in tulips.

Yes a deed of variation ( or instrument of variation) can be used to vary a will OR the rules of intestacy, so yes Mum could ensure her half is passed on to her grandchildren.

The first part of your father’s statement is accurate: the situation IS different because your DB made no will. So no one can be sure what his wishes for this sad circumstance would have been.

But the second part of his statement - that you/the DC will inherit some time in the future - may or may not be true. Depends on lots of things.

Sorry for your loss OP.

When we talk about leaving inheritances to younger family members, it's usually because we assume that our parents will be long dead by the time we die.
However, had he been alive, would your brother have voluntarily chosen to help his parents if they were struggling for money?
Would he have wanted to help look after them in old age?
Would he have wanted to support them having a bit of comfort?

I think your father is perfectly entitled to spend the money left by HIS SON and he's correct in suggesting that you and your children will inherit what's left when they've died. That's the normal course of events.

It's saddens me to read how many MNers think that younger children are somehow more deserving than grandparents in the twilight of their years.



@Cambalamb

Thanks Bats we must get round to it. What stops us is who to nominate as guardian for our DC(18 and 15).

You don't have to nominate guardians, and even if you do, they don't have to act if they don't want to, so if this really is holding you up, just leave it out - and a (loose, paper, not clipped to the will) note later if you think of someone, asking your executors to follow the note.

If you leave money to minors it gets held in trust and the trustee can be nominated (usually the parent or an aunt or uncle) or is the executor - just do it, a will writer will guide you!

Ok Van that's good to know.

I am sorry for your loss. The parents have sadly lost a son earlier than expected and no amount of money will ever replace that son, but it may help in some way now or in the future. Do you, your parents and all other family members have wills ? It is considered bad taste to argue over someone's estate once they have passed. In this case, the estate has passed to the parents. I would make peace with the world and your family. 5k is a generous amount to pass to each grand child. There are lots of things in life that people don't sort out examples on here; no travel insurance, not being married, no pension and in this case no will

OP - if your DB had done a will it would have been a nice windfall for his much loved nieces and nephews. But the fact is that he did not, I realise that's a hard fact to come to terms with, but there's nothing you can do and I wouldn't allow this to tar your DB's memory in anyway or the precious relationships he enjoyed with your children over many years. It was probably pure inertia on his part that meant it never happened.
I would however suggest to your father that he consider setting up an LPA. There is a government leaflet available on what this means and it's important that your father wouldn't perceive this as a sly move on your part to seruptitiously assume and get hold of is newfound money. What you'd be doing is ensuring that in the event of either your mother or father becoming mentally incapacitated (there are legal test criteria), being an attorney at least ensures that you could access their money (and not having to use your own!!!!!) to pay for their care, welfare and running of their houses before their deaths. Many offspring with no LPA's realise this risk that hangs over them.

It does sound tough OP, particularly as your father just want to indulge in the usual vacuous, babyboomer, consumer cliches - cruises, conservatory and cars. I think you should speak seriously and kindly to your mum, who presumably loves her grandchildren deeply - will she really enjoy all that when feeling it i at there expense, especially as there is plenty of money for your father to spraff and still provide some welcome help to the grandchildren. Otherwise your dad will spend it all on soulless stuff that won't really make them any happier and will potentially drive a wedge with their children - how many cruises will make up for that?

I am quite unbelieving about this idea that young healthy people go around making it clear who they want to leave their money to.

Cambalamb as VanGoghsDog said you don't need to decide on guardians straight away or at all. You can amend or add to wills later for minor variations through a codicil without needing to rewrite the wills. Also a good will writer or solicitor will get you to consider 'what ifs' surrounding wills and trusts especially when DCs are involved. I think threads like this are good reminders to get wills sorted (e.g. I keep thinking I might update my will as I want to change the charities I am leaving money to).

OP hope you are ok as it's a horrible time for everyone. I think you have to decide how much to push this given that legally the money has gone to the 'correct' people.

I'm sorry for your loss OP.

But don't let this sad event sour relations within your family. Your DC are no worse off than had your brother lived to a ripe old age. Many, many DC make their way in life without a windfall or inheritance. You've not mentioned the kind of lifestyle your parents have had up until now.

My parents, in their retirement are better off than they've ever been (but still not wealthy, and living in their ex-council house) and I do not begrudge them for one minute their holidays overseas and house renovations that they've enjoyed in recent years, because they had none of those when I was younger.

Thanks Bats. Plessis I can quite believe it when they are unmarried and have no children.

I hate this BS excuse that old people use for not helping their DCs/ grandchildren. The fact that they legally have a right to do as they please with their own money doesn't make it OK to piss money away on cars and conservatories while the next two or even three generations are struggling.

Wow. Just wondering if you'd care to clarify your definition of 'old people'? Just so we know.

And for what it's worth, I'll continue to 'piss my money away' on cars, and the rest, if I so choose. You may not think it's OK but we're gonna have to disagree on that. Who do you suppose is going to look after my needs a I get older if I give my worldly goods to the next generation?' In the time honoured tradition, they may get it when I'm gone.

It's said that ageism is one of the major forms of discrimination in today's world. You know something? I think it's true!