Brother died intestate - disagreement over his estate

[Miggymoggymugwumps]

My beloved brother died very unexpectedly earlier this year, it was a huge shock and has been very hard to deal with losing him. For background he had a successful career, never married and at the time of his death was single with no dependents. Because he had no children of his own he idolised his nieces and nephews and was a huge part of their lives from the day they were all born. There are 4 of them and they are now all adults with the youngest being 18 and the eldest 32.(2 are mine and 2 are my sisters)

Anyway he always said (as you do at times) that if anything ever happened to him he'd leave something to me and my sister but that the bulk of his estate would be equally split between 'all the kids'. However it is now apparent that he never got around to making a Will and that he died intestate, so his next of kin become the beneficiaries. That is our parents and of course this is totally right and proper. Now everything has been settled his estate comes to a little over £400,000 which is obviously a vast amount.

This is were problems are now creeping in. My Dad who seems to have had a personality transplant now that he's come into money has decided to give the nieces and nephews just £5,000 each. Now I know this isn't to be sniffed at but I can't help feeling that it is a bit stingy bearing in mind just how much inheritance there is but most of all it is absolutely not what my brother would have wanted. Her always said he wanted them to benefit, and mentioned this on many occasions, to me, my sister, our parents, friends and even his next door neighbours. Even at his funeral close friends of his said that is what he wanted to happen.

My Dad says that because he didn't make a Will that the situation is different now and that the kids and us will end up with it all eventually anyway when him and Mum pass away. They are late 70's, and thankfully in good health but obviously may need care in the future which will need to be paid for. Dad says he's going to have their bathroom and kitchen done, have a conservatory, buy a new car and go on nice holidays.

I gently tried to explain that although my brother would have wanted them to enjoy themselves 'on him' and make their lives a bit easier his actual wishes about the nieces and nephews having it were getting forgotten. Dad doesn't seem to want to acknowledge this at all, my Mum agrees with us but can't get through to him either and it's starting to cause friction. If there is a solution please tell me as I just want to do things right by my brother!

I always find it a little bit distasteful when people complain about not being given money when relatives die.

There is a sense in which your db's untimely death does change things. He would have always assumed that your dps would die before him and he wouldn't have thought of including them in his plans.

If he'd had time to make a will knowing that he was going to die soon, do you think he would have made some sort of financial provision for them, too? Of course, that depends on how well off they are.

So sorry that you have this to deal with as well as your db's unexpected death.

Your parents can't just give it to them, it would have further implications

Unless either of them have a foreseeable care need, what would the implications be?

I'd cheerfully tell your dad how pleased you are that they'll be able to pay for all their own care in their later years and won't need any help of any kind from you or the grandkids.

Not sure I could forgive df that either, but the 'fault' is equally with your DM. She could gift her half regardless of his wishes. Don't blame one without the other.

Namechangeforthiscancershit inheritance tax for example

The parents would sign a deed of variation though so no IHT or CGT issues

For goodness sake they inherited the money and can do what they like with it. If you inherit money are you going to be told what to do with it. This is very unseemly talk and shows a total lack of respect for your parents. Your brother could have blown it all or got married later or given it to charity. It is what it is ..leave it now.

Actually I think the idea of asking Mum whether she's in agreement about stepping in could be something to consider. However she is from a different generation and has always let my Dad make their life decisions as 'head of the household', dated as that now is...she will find it very hard for to change!

I gave a large amount to my dcs of the money I inherited from my dm and aunt. It was left to me, but I signed a deed of variation so that the money went straight to them. Otherwise, I would have to live for 7 years or pay gift tax.

Maybe you could bring up the inheritance tax implications?

On an estate of £400,000 then this is over the inheritance tax threshold (£325K, I think) and they will be paying tax of 40% on £75K.

This is pretty much unavoidable. On the other hand, what CAN be avoided (or reduced) is the inheritance tax payable on your parents' estates when they pass on.

If your parents sit on the bulk of this money and then it passes to their grandchildren on their deaths, then the grandchildren will very probably (depending on the size of the estate) have to pay inheritance tax AGAIN on the same money. If, on the other hand, your parents distribute a significant amount of the money to their grandchildren now via a deed of variation, then no extra inheritance tax would be payable on that money.

This is one of the reasons it makes more sense for younger people to inherit money from older people, rather than vice versa.

It makes no real logical sense for your dad to say that the money will go to the grandchildren eventually anyway. If he's that certain of not using it, then why not make it over to them now, so that they can get the benefit of it? The only reason to hang onto it is because you might use it.

Having said all this, it's unfortunately entirely up to your parents whether they do this or not - they legally own the money, after all.

Well as they raised your brother and lost their son in an untimely manner i'd probably stop thinking in pounds and more in how to support them in their grief.

Sorry your kids won't get a windfall.

If your mum genuinely agrees with you then she won't be involved in choosing the new house things or going on the holidays or in the new car, will she?

Sorry for your loss .

One way of approaching it with your father might be to get financial advice and point out how much money would be wasted on tax if he did not pass on some of it now?

Sadly it’s too late to do anything about it. If nothing else you have learned an unpleasant lesson about the kind of person your father is. The kind of money you are talking about isn’t life changing so I would suggest you just put it out of your minds adtryto move on.

So sorry to hear about your DB, OP, and that you are having to deal with this family discord. As PPs have said, half the money is your DMs, I would just focus on her, and maybe you can change your DDs mind.

If he'd had time to make a will knowing that he was going to die soon

This is the problem with people's attitude to making a will. It is not just something to be done because you think you are going to die soon. If you have assets, you should make a will!My DS inherited quite a large sum when he was 18, the first thing we did was get him to make a will.

It is not tempting fate, in fact people who have wills live longer (so my solicitor tells me), and it avoids these upsetting family rows.

As others have said if your brother had deemed it that important he’d have made a will . My dsis is single and child free and she has made a will in favour of my 2 adult dc . To me it would seem money grabbing and distasteful to speak to your parents about this matter any further .

Your DF is certainly being selfish but the truth is your DB was GREATLY at fault for raising expectations when he hadn't bothered to make a will. Your DF's behavior is unfortunately exactly what happens in such situations.

The best thing to do is just accept that the money now belongs to your parents. I also would not be worrying about respecting your DB's wishes, as he clearly didn't feel strongly about this.

Does seem odd that your Ddad seems to be enjoying the money he wouldn't have received if his son hadn't died; a conservatory, car and holidays. An elderly relative dieing and passing on a substantial amount of money or a lottery win is different from your child's death. If I were in a similar situation I'd imagine I'd want to pass the money to my grandchildren.

You, of course know your family better than us. Have your parents always had to go without for example? The personality change must be as a result of your brother's death. Have your parents had any emotional support at all? There isn't much you can do, but I'd share your frustration as it would be so easy for your parents to make it fairer.

We've personally been in the situation where someone verbally said they wanted their estate to go to someone and then it turned out the will or lack of will meant something else happened.

You cannot blame the people who do inherit for the mess and bad feelings left behind. If the deceased had went around telling everyone on a regular basis he wanted his nieces to have a significant inheritance but didn't write a will saying that you can only assume it is not really what he wanted which is very frustrating as he's not here to ask anymore.

Stop discussing your parents money or making then feel guilty when they have lost a son. It is their money now legally and morally and you can only assume this is what you brother actually wanted, regardless of what and why he said what he said, or he would have done something about it.

I say this as someone whose dh was repeated told for 10 years they would solely inherit a house worth £300k, but in reality a new will was never written and the active 20 year old will said otherwise and he and his brothers got nothing.

You'll never know why so you just have to leave it be.

I disagree. People often say they will give money or do stuff to/for others when in their presence but in reality don't. (Charity, returning loans, wills). You think you know what he wanted but if he had been so keen he would have made sure it happened. He was a succesful man, not an idiot, so cannot say he didn't know.

If your parents need care I am sure he would have paid, (as I am paying for much of my mother's care), rather than see them struggle.

Your parents will have made sacrifices to help your DB become as successful as he was.

Your dad is not ancient. He has a right to a new bathroom or a holiday. How many years did they NOT have a holiday because they put the kids first.

And some PPs saying that you should treat your own dad in an unpleasant way because he is enjoying something that was given to him - is just horrible.

I am sorry to hear that your brother died - and for your parents to lose their son is just awful. Recovery from that is what matters - not who gets what

This is so very like the beginning of Sense and Sensibilty.

It’s extraordinary how some people change with a bit of money.

There’s really nothing to do other than challenge him legally to honour what your brother’s verbal promises, but given their vagueness you don’t stand a chance.

It would be sensible of your dad, rather than blowing the capital on holidays and extensions, to invest it with wealth management services and spend the income from that instead.

Your Dad may well feel like the money is in some way part of his son, and therefore wants to keep it. We often equate money with love, and your Dad could well be subconsciously wanting to 'gather' everything left by his son, and keep hold of it.

Of course, it could just be that grief has brought out his most selfish side, but perhaps think about how you'd feel if you lost a child, and how you'd want to hang on to every possible thing that reminded you of them.

I think there is a two-year time limit on doing a deed of variation, so if they do want to go down that route then you need to be mindful of that. Otherwise you would be dealing with the CGT amount limits and time limits which are a different ball game.

Maybe you might make some progress by suggesting your parents (and even other family members) see a tax planning professional? The sad event of your brother passing away might naturally make everyone want to get their affairs in order, just in case, and you can potentially reduce inheritance tax significantly with the proper advice. A good tax planning professional would then spot the opportunity to save on future IHT bills on your parents' estate by getting them to do a deed of variation in favour of their grandchildren. Your parents may react more favourably to this being proposed by a neutral third party who wants to save your family from paying too much tax. Might be worth trying.

Unfortunately if this was your brothers wish he should have written a will, your parents have done nothing wrong