To believe that trans is not a mental health condition

[Babykoala1]

Preparing to get flamed of course and expecting feminists to come out in full fource. Just as the title suggests, I do not believe that trans is a mental health condition as much as homosexuality or even intersex would be considered a mental health condition. I'm sure here on Mumsnet I am in the minority and I will be absolutely flamed for having the audacity to compare it to homosexuality. But really? Why is homosexuality accepted as a part of biology yet trans can be automatically discarded as a mental health issue?

I'll get my coat

Robisnotmyrealname

I’ve only caught the op post and skipped to the end reading your posts.

Just wanted to say totally I wholeheartedly agree there is no shame in having mental illness and even admitting that!

Hope you are able to get the much needed support you need. One of reasons I was against self Id because then it’s like ok job done off you trot, no support required. Don’t care if that makes me transphobic or whatever.

Wishing you the best in your journey

Why do people always compare being trans to being gay.

Being gay doesn't require 'correcting' something that is 'wrong'. Being gay doesn't require anyone to chop off major body parts or take hormones and it certainly doesn't require those things of children. Being gay doesn't require the rest of the world to collude in a lie that you are something that in reality you are categorically not. Being gay doesn't require another group to give up their rights or safety (for example, churches don't have to perform gay marriages if they don't want to). Being gay doesn't require schools to teach children that if they don't conform to the stereotypes normally associated with their sex, there might be something wrong with them that might need correcting.

I've never really understood the comparison?

Dysmorphia.

YABU yes I'm pretty sure it's a mental health disorder more than likely Borderline personality Disorder although imagine many will disagree as it's not particularly fashionable

Rob, it’s great to have your input; we so rarely hear from transmen in this debate.

OP The truly androgynous/neutral society is an interesting thought experiment. In such a society, how would a trans person tell us that they were trans? What words might they use?

Me neither Avege that’s why it’s important to fill out gov sex education consultation link in feminism boards thread, help our kids to be taught the difference that some grown ups have difficulty with.

Things seem skewed between gender and sex. It annoys me to think that 'woman' (gender) is summed up to mean make up, nicely coiffed hair etc. Surely that is (slightly exaggerated) femininity and nothing more

I'm rather familiar with a diagnosed psychopath. He needs treatment. Psychopathy isn't an illness, it's a condition; an unalterable and incurable state of his being. It's who he is.

But psychopathy (or more strictly speaking, anti-social personality disorder) is recognised as a mental disorder and listed in the DSM. It is not at all like homosexuality which is no longer recognised as a disorder at all.

Treating trans as being analogous to a personality disorder if anything actually reinforces the idea of trans being a disorder.

Babykoala1

I have no idea what trans is at the moment but what it is being peddled as is pretty fucked up. From puberty blockers, chest binders, to male bodied athletes competing against female bodies athletes.

Even down to males that feel female in the morning getting awards for being an outstanding female even though they got where they are through their male privilege (and I never thought that I would ever type that).

Why do people always compare being trans to being gay

this x1000. they just aren't the same at all. you don't have to mess your body about to be gay, it's totally different.

and YANBU OP, believe what you like

The reason for my comparison between trans and homosexuality is because homosexuality was once seen as a mental health condition to be cured and to be treated with correctional therapy etc. essentially though people still continue to have same sex intercourse. Unfortunately for trans individuals it is much more complex but does that mean that they should be 'corrected' too?

Nobody can conclusively say that homosexuality is or isn't genetic but if one is to apply the same logic and reasoning to trans it is completely dismissed.

Am coming in a bit late to this debate but I think homosexuality is different from trans. Some trans people have felt they were in the "wrong" body since childhood. Homosexuality is about who you are attracted to, so until puberty, a child will not consider themselves "gay", nor will those around the child. Children do not have a concept of themselves as sexual beings like adolescents do.

Intersex is something different again; I believe it is an umbrella term comprising conditions including hemaphroditism or disorders involving an extra sex chromosome.

Why is homosexuality accepted as a part of biology yet trans can be automatically discarded as a mental health issue?

Because one is who you're inherently attracted to, the other relies on gender stereotypes - stereotypes that have oppressed women for centuries - to come to the incorrect conclusion that you are the opposite sex, which is physically impossible.

To compare this to intersex is offensive as fuck. One is based on delusion and dysphoria, the other isn't

Also, gender dysphoria causes distress in the person who has it, because of the diconnect between the sex they feel they are. and the way their body physically presents. In the past homosexuals may have despised themselves or felt distressed but taht was because of societal, cultural or religious beliefs, it is not an innate thing coming from within.

To be fair lots of feminists agree with you. They just don't talk about it here because they get shouted down and called names

This.

And this

YaNbu
But people will shout you down because they forget that the way they feel about trans individuals is the way that people felt about gay individuals 40/50/60 years ago (and still do), that they shouldn’t be in our bathrooms, changing areas or refuges because they were “mentally ill”, “sexual predators” and would “corrupt the young” by “turning them gay”.“There is none so blind as those that will not see

Gunpowder I agree. It is offensive to compare intersex to a delusional disorder.

NotDavidTennant Am sorry but I disagree that psychopathy is an innate part of who someone is. Personality disorders are often considered a response to complex trauma or attchment issues in childhood. Saying psychopathy is innate is like saying BPD/EUPD or NPD are innate, but they are not, they are forms of complex ptsd and there are treatments available for them. Psychopathy does not YET have a treatment like the Dialectical or Schema therapy which are available for NPD and BPD, but I do not believe it is incurable.

There was a child psychopath called Beth Thomas, she did a video on Youtube called Child of Rage. Her childhood attchment issues caused by severe abuse would have turned into sociopathy like it would have done with Mary Bell, and Robert Thompson the child murderers, withput rehabilitation.

waterlego If the example is the way I described I don't think it could be communicated, just a feeling and sense of not belonging and perhaps having urges to procreate with the same sex. Just thoughts I guess, I believe most mammalian's have thoughts, they just can't be constructed in their brains the same way that humans use language (even in our thoughts)

I don’t get this. You seem to be saying that being trans is related to ‘hormone imbalances’ .hormones imbalance is exactly how I would describe my PND and that definitely was a mental illness that needed treatment. Surely if we are talking about the effect your biology has on your brain then that is partly a partly physical partly mental condition. Although as you note it’s impossible to prove or disprove this so this is just a guess.

LaCarmencita

I don't know enough about it but the NHS says it is a mental health issue. That may be why people are saying it is?

Unfortunately for trans individuals it is much more complex but does that mean that they should be 'corrected' too?

Wtf is inverting penises, chopping off breasts and pumping a healthy body full of hormones if it isn’t “correcting” someone?!

autumnleaves That is a good point you make about BPD- I have been through treatment for BPD, although am not trans, and there is a paralell there with the identity issues "who I am? not sure If I have a solid sense of identity" and the way this can manifest with some TRAs- Fixating on a perceived identity they want to hold on, to make them better know who they are/their place in the world and sometimes (like with some BPDs, getting very angry if their sense of who they are/feel they should be gets challenged. This is also seen in insecure NPDs, but there is a huge crossover between NPD and BPD)
I would suspect that many TRAs were also invalidated in their childhood and made to feel a lot of self doubt and insecurity,(the roots of BPD) This is just a theory, and I can only speak for being a BPD sufferer, not from a trans perspective, so I could be wrong.

Androgynous society would be to imagine a scenario without human intelligence, just stripped back to a level of basic intelligence and instinct.

That's not what androgynous means though? If it was a basic, non human level of instinct you're after, look at any animal population in the world. Do you think there are trans animals who look at other species and wish they could be a different species? Or the opposite sex of their own species? Or do they get on with reproduction as nature intends and not worry about what their gender identity is?

This was your statement remember. I think it's an interesting question. If it was an androgynous society, where human men and women with normal levels of intelligance were completely equal and indistinguishable from each other and apart from their biological functions, what do you think it would mean for a person to be trans? Do you think the number of trans people would be higher, lower or the same?

Ok nobody is saying trans is the same as homosexuality. It's highlighting the differences between the way society treats the two. For example, if I were to say that gay people were delusional I'm sure MNHQ would come in and have it swiftly deleted...

It would help your case if the trans community would stop using intersex people as a gotcha, as they have repeatedly asked.

And if transgenderism is not a mental health issue, trans activists need to stop using the threat/risk of suicide.