To believe that trans is not a mental health condition

[Babykoala1]

Preparing to get flamed of course and expecting feminists to come out in full fource. Just as the title suggests, I do not believe that trans is a mental health condition as much as homosexuality or even intersex would be considered a mental health condition. I'm sure here on Mumsnet I am in the minority and I will be absolutely flamed for having the audacity to compare it to homosexuality. But really? Why is homosexuality accepted as a part of biology yet trans can be automatically discarded as a mental health issue?

I'll get my coat

but put a gay person in an accepting environment as there's no reason why they can't be happy and fulfilled

it's not possible to change sex, so no matter where you put a trans person, they're not going to feel fulfilled, because what they want isn't possible.

Well, let's start by dropping the transphobia and see where that gets us.

jellyfrizz You haven't come across 'the suck my lady dick' trans people?

What property are they asserting themselves to possess that they don't? Lady is a reference to gender so mental, dick is physical but then there is no dispute there.

Of course you may quibble that lady only ought to be used for people with a certain chromosome, but that is a dispute over language use, not someone thinking their body is physically different than what it actually is.

I was struck by you describing your child as "possibly the most beautiful little girl ever" because beauty is a highly prized characteristic in little girls, MenoMum4.

It seems likely gender dysphoric children are the product of a society that forces them into increasingly narrow gender boxes.

It's all stereotypes. Girls are 'sweet'. Boys are 'cheeky'. And it has serious consequences. For instance boys aren't encouraged to be docile. Girls are, and it's obvious that we'll see fewer leaders and bosses among girls taught that nice little girls are docile.

That's what I was explaining in my post about socialization. Boy and girl children are valued for very different qualities, or rather perceived qualities.

I say "perceived" because when the real sex of small children is disguised by a change of name and clothing they are treated completely differently.

I feel it's far better to encourage anyone with gender dysphoria to come to terms with the fact of their sex and the reality of their body.

There's no such thing as "being born in the wrong body". You only get one, and you are your body.

Telling them hormones and surgery will solve their problems is unkind because it isn't true. People can't change sex.

Plus the effects of testosterone on the female body are brutal. Far more brutal than the effects of oestrogen on males. Research it with your child.

After only a few years women are stuck with permanent male pattern baldness and body hair. Their vulva and vagina atrophy. They will need total hysterectomies because of the increased risk of certain cancers.

As I said, brutal. And what if you change your mind? I've seen blog posts and YouTube videos by detransitioners. They're heartbreaking. Perhaps watch some with your child.

We all thought we'd always feel the way we did then when we were 16. We were wrong.

nerf having re-read my initial post I accept that it does come across as slightly distasteful regarding mental health, I apologise. I suffer from mental health issues myself and it's not my intention to put mental health on a lower pedestal to that of any other condition.

Fascinating thread.

What property are they asserting themselves to possess that they don't? Lady is a reference to gender so mental, dick is physical but then there is no dispute there.

“Suck my lady dick people”was shorthand for those who insist they are female despite the obvious male anatomy that they have no wish to change.

And please stop talking about mental illness like it is something icky you stepped in. If trans was indeed a mental illness it would be no less deserving of understanding, support, compassion and treatment than any other explanation of trans would be. The fact people fight so hard to be NOT under the umbrella of mental health speaks volumes about how much contempt our society still views those illnesses with.

Agree 100%. But I think trans people would rather not be thought of as ill at all, at least no more than someone who wanted cosmetic surgery for a congenital physical abnormality.

Most transgender people may not believe their body is something other than it objectively is, but they (often) believe that there is something indescribably "wrong" about the reality of how it is, and that it needs to change.

Most anorexics (having been one myself long ago) also know very well that their body is thin, that their weight is a certain number (down to decimal points), that their measurements are factually certain numbers, that they are wearing child-sized clothes. But they feel intrinsically fat, as if no matter how they transform their body on the outside, it is never thin enough. They don't actually believe that they are objectively fat, but they feel like they are.

People with body dysmorphia (see 'transabled' via Google) also don't deny the objective reality of their body. They just feel it to be 'wrong', and seek to alter it - often via self-mutilation if not granted surgery.

Feeling ill at ease, to the point of suicidal thoughts and self-mutilation, with the state of one's natural body is not a state of health. Whilst not always in agreement over certain issues, I have every empathy for anyone experiencing this (and their families).

My husband has major depressive disorder, also known as clinical depression.

I do too, Nerfballs. Like your DH there's a strong genetic component to my chronic severe depression. Both my DF and one DB have bipolar type 1 and I have type 2 (which is just depression in someone who has close family with type 1).

I lose my sense of smell when I'm depressed, which is related to the most primitive and ancient part of the brain.

Sadly antidepressants don't make much difference to me. They don't work well for most people. A doctor told me my depression was entirely biochemical and that it wouldn't be too many years before there was a cure. It would be wonderful.

I can't see that believing you were born into the wrong body, that you should be the opposite sex, and that you need surgery and hormones to be the person you were meant to be can be considered mentally healthy. If you really believe that you're delusional.

Hormones and surgery should be an absolute last resort. People with gender dysphoria aren't any happier post surgery than they were before. Surely talking therapy, and possibly psychoactive medication, are better ways to tackle it?

I just read the blog posted by pencils above.

It's like trans is effectively the latest cult. It makes you wonder if there is actually someone behind it all making money out of it which is usually the case with cults.

It's like trans is effectively the latest cult. It makes you wonder if there is actually someone behind it all making money out of it which is usually the case with cults.

It does indeed make you wonder. There have been loads of threads on the topic on the Feminism Chat board. Here's one from February, and here's one from earlier this month. Both contain links to further resources.

It's not just about money. The extremes of trans ideology are a men's sexual rights movement. Women are not to be permitted boundaries, whether in our showers or lesbians refusing the almighty penis. A number of prominent TRAs have been exposed as flashers and fetishists. One transwoman who advises the Girl Guides was an advocate for extreme porn detailing the dismemberment of women and sex with their dead body parts.

And there appears to be a strong desire to eradicate safeguarding. We're already hearing talk that children should trust adult transgender strangers if their family aren't supportive enough. Well, what could possibly go wrong? Oh wait...

Trans is a huge umbrella so the OP position can't possibly cover all the different types.

The vast majority of people under the trans umbrella aren't suffering from any kind of disorder. They don't want to conform to the sexist gender-stereotypes associated with their physical body shape and they have been incorrectly informed by a sexist culture that this means they are actually the opposite sex. Not a disorder, just a misunderstanding.

Quite a few of the remainder are fetishists whose particular foibles give them a kick from transgressing societies gender-based norms. Not a disorder particularly and not a problem. People can dress as they like. But if someone is getting a sexual thrill from having their fantasy affirmed as "true" that's something to keep to being performed between consenting adults -it becomes a problem when unconsenting members of the public are forced into a role of performing in the realisation of the fantasy by following a script of accepting them into their desired role unquestioningly.

The fairly small minority under the trans umbrella who have a genuine diagnosis of gender dysphoria - yes that's a mental health condition like other kinds of disphoria. It being acknowledged as such doesn't make it "wrong". Sometimes transition is the best treatment. Lots of transexual people find that transition relieves their disphoria enough to live functional lives. Others don't, so careful work under medical supervision is really important.

The trans people who reject gender stereotypes, live and dress how they please transgressing those stereotypes, but yet acknowledge that they are still basically their birth sex when it comes to facts, despite presenting as the opposite sex - they are pretty much sane (or at least no less sane than the rest of us)

Agree about gender dysphoria's link to anorexia. There is also Body Integrity Dysphoria, where people want to be disabled. What bothers me is that part of the trans campaigners' propaganda is to want to have the cake and eat it - to not want to admit they have a 'disease' but to want a (state funded, expensive) medical treatment.

I also think some trans advocates are feeding mental disorders like Munchausen by Proxy. This is where parents force their child to 'be ill' for the validation they get from the treatment process.

I think it’s mental health, in my (uneducated) view I would say a form of body dysmorphia.

Nailed it Prawnofthepatriarchy

Gender dysphoria is now officially classified as a 'medical condition' by the NHS, I believe. Most people who have it, certainly those who come on here, will tell you how distressing it is.

Indeed many TRAs will go further and say it leads to suicide ideation.

Whatever you call it, it clearly needs treating. One way or another.

But it's also incredibly rare. Cross dressing, transvestism and autogynephilia appear far more common. And the men who have that are the ones generally claiming it's a civil rights issue or a social movement rather than a medical one.

Hence A number of prominent TRAs have been exposed as flashers and fetishists.

Which also explains why a number of Older transexuals feel isolated and in some cases have been bullied and silenced out of this current transactivism.

What they live with has been watered down to clothes and items.

Tenorladybeaker Your post makes a very good point. It's important to remember in any discussion of this that "trans" can now mean a number of different things, not just transsexuals or even just people with gender dysphoria. If we want to discuss issues like whether Trans is to do with mental health, it's important to be clear what type of trans we are talking about.

Most anorexics (having been one myself long ago) also know very well that their body is thin, that their weight is a certain number (down to decimal points), that their measurements are factually certain numbers, that they are wearing child-sized clothes. But they feel intrinsically fat, as if no matter how they transform their body on the outside, it is never thin enough. They don't actually believe that they are objectively fat, but they feel like they are.

So they know that they have a thin body but feel as if they have a non-thin body? And nothing they do to their body will stop this feeling of having a non-thin body?

So by analogy a trans man say knows that they have a female body but at the same time they feel like they have a male body. Not sure that describes the experience of trans men.

Presumably if you could mind-transplant a trans man into a male body they would agree and feel as if they had a male body.

Unlike what you describe for people with anorexia, who would go on thinking that their new thin body is still non-thin and keep on trying to make it thinner.

I would also point out that anorexia is hazardous to life and health. Whereas for trans people none of the things some of them do medically pose a clear and immediate danger. Most don't even have surgeries. It might be more of a 'background noise' in their life, rather than a constant source of severe distress and/or dangerous behaviours.

Not4 I am not truing to argue that transgenderism is not a MH issue here, just think that the comparison with anorexia with the view to arguing "so if you agree anorexia is a MI then it follows that you must think transgenderism is as they are entirely analogous".

The comparison with anorexia is just a comparison, not to say they are identical, but similar.

The strongest features in common being that they both feel their body is 'wrong', feel distressed about this, want the body to change but are often still dissatisfied, experience high levels of co-morbid mental health issues and high rates of suicide.

In both, the fixation is on the body, but the problem is not in the body (the body is healthy, self-damage excluded). The 'problem' is in the mind, but this not meant in any way to minimise or dismiss the distress. Just to pinpoint its root.

For an even closer comparison, see:

Transabled - feeling you should have a disabled body

The person in the photograph is both transgender and transabled (and has written elsewhere comparing the two as the same in their experience).

I dunno i disagree but i never met anyone trans so dont really understand it

Remember that German guy who wanted to be eaten (and was). Where does it end?

Nothing - absolutely nothing - will convince a person in the throes if anorexia that the objective reality of their body is, well, real. To them, their body is wrong and they hate it - the desire to control and change it is overwhelming. The obsessive, compulsive nature of it is truly awful.

Much of the treatment is around dealing with any underlying triggers or trauma and systematically and gently working towards an acceptance of their body.

I see absolutely no reason why other forms of body or gender dysphoria shouldn’t be treated in a similarly compassionate and methodical way, rather than the current trend for blind affirmation.

The biggest reason there's all this discussion about what, if any, sort of medical condition 'being trans' is, is because there is huge political pressure to allow people to legally change sex without any sort of diagnosis at all - just on their own word.

The newly updated ICD-11 diagnosis of 'gender incongruence' as they are now calling it, specifically excludes paraphilic disorders. The paraphilic disorders include: 6D30 Exhibitionistic disorder; 6D31 Voyeuristic disorder; 6D32 Pedophilic disorder; 6D33 Coercive sexual sadism disorder; 6D34 Frotteuristic disorder; 6D35 Other paraphilic disorder involving non-consenting individuals.

Removing the requirement for a diagnosis removes the opportunity to screen out individuals who exhibit these paraphilias. This is extremely dangerous for women and girls, who vanishingly rarely exhibit paraphilias themselves - oh look, a behavioural sex difference - why isn't anybody researching this one?