To believe that trans is not a mental health condition

[Babykoala1]

Preparing to get flamed of course and expecting feminists to come out in full fource. Just as the title suggests, I do not believe that trans is a mental health condition as much as homosexuality or even intersex would be considered a mental health condition. I'm sure here on Mumsnet I am in the minority and I will be absolutely flamed for having the audacity to compare it to homosexuality. But really? Why is homosexuality accepted as a part of biology yet trans can be automatically discarded as a mental health issue?

I'll get my coat

and for the record I am with you @babykoala1 I think there must be a genetic or hormonal element to the body dysmporphia of being trans. I don't believe people would assert their feelings so strongly or be so clear that something innately feels wrong if it's just culture.

I believe trans people that the gender binary they've been given doesn't work for them, on a profound level.

Posters that keep asking me to state the differences in males and females that aren't biological I don't really understand I said there were fundamental differences between both sexes which I believe to be true, pretty much all of those factors will be biological because, well we are living creatures. If you had to describe the differences between a pig and a cow it would all be biological would it not?

I'm also not stating that environmental factors such as gender stereotypes have no bearing on the trans debate but as my posts suggest I do not believe it to be the primary cause

How do you explain detransition then op?

You're right, it's not a mental health issue. It's just anti trans people here are vile.

It's quite possible, but why does it matter if it is genetic? I mean, the twin studies show rather weak evidence on that for either genetics or in-utero conditions (far far less than for homosexuality last I read) and there is evidence of a genetic predisposition for many things - including many mental illnesses - but that doesn't make it a guaranteed. It likely has many factors.

I don't get how being genetic changes anything - the best treatments still starts with mental health care, most people with gender dysphoria do not seek surgeries or hormonal treatments (less than 20% in the UK do so), both of those treatments are incredibly risky and should be done with caution of the risks and benefits and a lot of monitoring due to those risks, people will still want single sex options alongside mixed sex regardless of gender identity however that identity is caused. As I said, it's classification won't matter much to the wider population and it doesn't affect treatment much as most don't take it and those who need it should be led by evidence-based care.

morningseleven you've been asked twice on separate threads (and deleted) not to use that term of abuse. I have reported you again.

I believe that transsexuals have a mental health condition called gender dysphoria which causes them great distress.

As for the term trans which you have used in your OP, according to Stonewall the term trans includes "transgender, transsexual, gender-queer (GQ), gender-fluid, non-binary, gender-variant, crossdresser, genderless, agender, nongender, third gender, two-spirit, bi-gender, trans man, trans woman,trans masculine, trans feminine and neutrois" and is an "umbrella term to describe people whose gender is not the same as, or does not sit comfortably with, the sex they were assigned at birth"

So I suppose I agree with you, that trans is not a mental health condition, as many people will fall under that brolly, including myself.

I’m not going to flame you OP as it is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

However as someone who is trans my main concern that if gender dysphoria is no longer recognised as a mental illness then where does it leave people like me who need mental health support?

Logically if having gender dysphoria is no longer a mental illness then it follows that there is no need to treat it which will leave people like me in an even more vulnerable and scary place.

I don't think it's shameful to be mentally ill.

Homosexuality used to be categorised as a mental health disorder

Oh I see. You mean you think that one day we would be able to test for someehing and come up with an objective test that means a person is trans?

I can’t rule that out as a possibility.

However, it would NOT mean that, for example, trans women are women, because the class ‘woman’ would still be distinguishable from the class ‘men who have the biological marker for being trans’.

Somebody actually pointed me in the direction of Mumsnet earlier to a different thread about transmen and what we want. Tbh I don't really want much. I just want to get on with my life...and hopefully not have my mental health support snatched away from me if someone decides it is somehow 'transphobic'.

Op i don't think you got my question. You said that in a universe where everyone was completely androgynous, you think there would still be trans people. I'm not arguing with or attacking you, I would just like to know why you think that's the case? What would they be identifying with, if there are no stereotypes because both sexes are totally androgynous?

Basically, how can someone with male biology, without external gender stereotypes, identify as or with someone with female biology?

I've reported the misogynistic hate speech too.

And no, I don't support self ID.

I think of it as a spectrum.

What sex you are is what sex you are. There is no such thing as "the wrong body", your body is your body. Whether you have an attraction to males/females or both is biological. Obviously there are people who's genes/sexual organs are not completely Male or Female as well.

However, how "womanly" or "manly" you feel is a separate issue and it's a societal thing that has put people into boxes of very little variety. There should be no issue of being Male but preferring wearing nail varnish and knitting and flower arranging (extreme stereotype!) or Female and liking sport and woodcarving etc.

I'm not sure if it's a mental illness as such other than insisting you've been born in the wrong body is complete nonsense so belief in that is delusional.

I really couldn't give a rats arse who people choose to love or what they want to wear or if Kevin wants to call himself Katy. I do however object to people encouraging others to get bits of their bodies chopped off and to give hormones to children as if they can't live a happy life without that.

Maybe is we had a more open society people wouldn't feel the need to go through these things in order to be who they feel they are?

Ok so for the trans people that have replied, believe me I am not suggesting that mental health services should not be available to you, I believe that trans people need more mental health support than most. My point is that I think it's damaging to label the cause of gender dysphoria as a mental health condition without considering genetic factors. If it is considered only a mental condition surely it is morally wrong to offer people gender reassignment surgery when a mental health condition should be treated with CBT, therapy, SSRI's etc

RobIsNotMyRealName
I hope you get now and in the future all and any help you feel you need. No one else should be able to remove that help under the guise of being suppirtive.Too often we speak on behalf of others, forgetting that those at the core of the issue have the most to say.

It depends on what you are classifying as trans.

Being gender non-conforming is not in itself a disorder of any kind. I'm sure that if social stigma about being gender non-conforming was removed then those people could live happy and fulfilled lives, just as society has found that gay people can live perfectly happy and fulfilled lives once the social stigma around homosexuality is removed.

However, having feelings of distress or disgust abut your sexed body, especially to the extent that this require some kind of medical treatment, surely must be considered a medical disorder of some kind, other why does it require treatment? Trans in this sense is not like being gay, because the associated feelings of distress are not just caused by social stigma (although that may be part of it), but some internal sense of dis-ease.

And whichever sense of trans you're thinking of, it's not clear that being trans actually makes the individual a member of the opposite sex, or that it's a good idea to let people self-ID their legal sex, which are the two things in the trans debate that generate the majority of objections on MN.

But if it's not a mental illness then it won't need any treatment?

Logically if having gender dysphoria is no longer a mental illness then it follows that there is no need to treat it which will leave people like me in an even more vulnerable and scary place.

No-one here agreeing with the op wants support taken away from people who need it. But saying gender dysphoria isn't a mental illness doesn't mean anyone thinks you don't need support to live with it, just like many conditions require acute and longterm medical support to live with. Doesn't make them illnesses.

Saying it isn't an illness is just a question of saying it isn't something that could or should be cured. Would your agree with that, that we should be seeking to provide support and not a cure?

The idea that it could or should be cured is what most people would consider transphobic I assume, but I haven't seen that accusation made on this thread (disclaimer: haven't reread every post to check).

We can consider, but until there is, if ever, any evidence of a biological link we cannot use that to base an argument. Surely, in the meantime there needs to be a way of offering support to those who need it and also support from those who are suffering from other conditions.
The biggest probelem is how generic the term trans is. Not everyone who falls under the increasingly large umbrella of trans has body dysmorphia, in fact evidence, so far, shows very few are body dysmorphic. So if we seperate that group are we still looking for a similar biological link for the rest of those within the trans community? It seems like too diverse a group to say that there is one cause or one hormone causing this.
However i could be completely wrong and am open to learn from those with more knowledge and to support in what ways i can.

BiologyMatters okay so I guess the best way to explain my argument regarding an androgynous society would be to imagine a scenario without human intelligence, just stripped back to a level of basic intelligence and instinct. I still think there would be gender dysphoric people, males that felt they want to carry babies, females that want to have sex with women and give them babies. The same way homosexuality has pretty much always existed I feel the same about trans, just theres been no way of really explaining it so it could have been confused with homosexuality (if the trans individuals were straight)

But if it's not a mental illness then it won't need any treatment?

I'm rather familiar with a diagnosed psychopath. He needs treatment. Psychopathy isn't an illness, it's a condition; an unalterable and incurable state of his being. It's who he is.

But he still needs a fuck load of treatment and support for it.

(Second disclaimer: not comparing psychopathy to trans in any way except to say that both are inalienable from the people who are diagnosed as such.)

If it is considered only a mental condition surely it is morally wrong to offer people gender reassignment surgery when a mental health condition should be treated with CBT, therapy, SSRI's etc

I think it is morally wrong. I think health services up til recently have done their best to help some severely distressed people by mutilating them at their request because severe gender dysphoria is a hard thing to treat. But suddenly so many more people are identifying as trans and having surgeries unnecessarily. Women in their twenties are finding their wombs are atrophying because of taking T so they need full hysterectomies. Have you googled a phalloplasty scar before? A woman's arm is completely stripped of skin and tissue to make a fake penis.

Doing these extreme surgeries on healthy bodies is awful. Many women don't even become comfortable with their breasts until their thirties or forties and yet it is very easy to get a mascectomy in your teens or twenties in some parts of the world now.