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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To believe that trans is not a mental health condition

303 replies

Babykoala1 · 27/10/2018 19:42

Preparing to get flamed of course and expecting feminists to come out in full fource. Just as the title suggests, I do not believe that trans is a mental health condition as much as homosexuality or even intersex would be considered a mental health condition. I'm sure here on Mumsnet I am in the minority and I will be absolutely flamed for having the audacity to compare it to homosexuality. But really? Why is homosexuality accepted as a part of biology yet trans can be automatically discarded as a mental health issue?

I'll get my coat

OP posts:
JudgeRulesNutterButter · 27/10/2018 21:00

Why is homosexuality accepted as a part of biology yet trans can be automatically discarded as a mental health issue?

Because for gay (and bi, etc) people their mind and their body are in agreement. They fancy who they fancy. End of.

Trans people believe that something about their body is wrong. Their mind and body are in conflict. So that must be either a physical or mental condition. Personally I’d say treating it as a mental condition is preferable, because you can’t turn a functioning male/female body into a functioning female/male body, so physical treatment to me seems destructive and akin to conversion therapy.

If you include trans people who like their body fine and just want to dress it up differently, then I would agree there’s no problem there except society’s outdated gender ideas.

charlestonchaplin · 27/10/2018 21:01

Actually I think it is clear that most transgender people in the UK do not have gender dysphoria. Which is why so few opt for 'bottom' surgery. It is one of many reasons I'm opposed to self-ID. If anyone should have the benefit of the Gender Recognition Act I think it should only be people with gender dysphoria. I also think biological males should be required to have their genitals removed unless they are medically unfit for the operation.

Babykoala1 · 27/10/2018 21:05

Seriously people can't see there are differences between males and females that aren't their genitalia? Society can be blamed for a lot of things but the differences between males and females are not just environmental, I'm suffering from major PMS right now, my partner however is not.

OP posts:
nottakingthisanymore · 27/10/2018 21:07

You have PMS because of your biology.

CaptainKirksSpookyghost · 27/10/2018 21:07

PMS is biological...

JudgeRulesNutterButter · 27/10/2018 21:07

FFS. Seriously can’t you see that PMS is related to your genitalia???

Catsandbootsandbootsandcats · 27/10/2018 21:10

You have PMS because your female sexual organs are going through menstruation. Which only females go through.

So answer what are the differences between males and females that aren't to do with biology? Because I'm really not getting it. Beards? They aren't genitalia. That must be it. Men have beards and moustaches. Got it.

Gentlygently · 27/10/2018 21:10

You have said what you think it is not. Could you say what you think it is?

You said that it should not be treated as a mental health issue because just like homosexuality and intersex are not. But really that is no argument at all, because they are completely different (and different from each other).

Homosexuality is easy to define (same sex attraction)
Intersex is easy to define (variations of physical/chromosomal sexual characteristics that are outside the norm).

But how do you define trans?

categed · 27/10/2018 21:14

From what i have read i think there couldb be an argument that people with gender dysmorphia have an mental health illness. However many people who identify as trans (or will if included under self id) are normal people who like to feel a certain way through clothing, lifestyle choices etc. Some are people who may get a sexual response, others may feel happier and more at home with the lifestyle choices of what society sees as a different sex.
Maybe that is why there are far fewer female trans than male. It is accepted that woman can dress and behave in a gender typical masculin way without having to be a man.
However i have found that there has been no compelling, peer assed evidence that biology supports any argument from the majority of trans being due to biology.

BiologyMatters · 27/10/2018 21:14

Without gender stereotypes how would someone identify as the opposite sex? I'd love to know.

Babykoala1 · 27/10/2018 21:20

Yes thanks everyone I know why I have PMS, I was obviously referring to physical differences in genitalia. Any differences between both sexes are going to be biological as we are living creatures so ultimately everything will be down to biology

OP posts:
FissionChips · 27/10/2018 21:21

Are you saying you believe PMS is not to do with biology or is? Confused

FissionChips · 27/10/2018 21:23

Oh, sorry, crops post.

nottakingthisanymore · 27/10/2018 21:23

Yes. Everything is down to biology. That’s the point.

JudgeRulesNutterButter · 27/10/2018 21:23

Also, sexual attraction is a feeling so it’s appropriate for it to be defined to the outside world by the person feeling it. External factors don’t define people’s sexuality, we know it’s bullshit to say “you have short hair therefore you’re a lesbian”.

For trans people who want us to believe that they “are” the opposite sex, they are asking us to believe that their feelings override their external physical body. I’ll believe my own eyes, thanks.

Gentlygently · 27/10/2018 21:23

If there were only 4 people on earth, 2 male and 2 female, the possibility for homosexuality would still exist. Intersex conditions would still exist. But I don't think trans would. Because the variations between the two people of the same sex would probably be similar to the variations between them and the opposite sex people.

Babykoala1 · 27/10/2018 21:24

BiologyMatters Well you know, I guess they could be distinguished by carrying babies, not carrying babies, having tits not having tits you get the picture

OP posts:
auberbene · 27/10/2018 21:28

Sorry OP, but I still really don't understand how intersex is even in this discussion?

FuzzyShadowChatter · 27/10/2018 21:29

We can debate the classification until the cows come home. Personally, I don't think it matters to most people outside of researchers and, as others said, the fight to say it isn't mental seems to be more about the stigma of mental illness than how to classify those who are distressed by their sex characteristics and wish to be seen as the other sex. I've read that there is more evidence that PTSD alters the brain and hormones than being trans (though there is still overlap with the general population so still no way to tell just by assessing either) but few would argue it isn't a mental illness.

The question I think should focus on who should be medically treated and how and best practice with our current knowledge starts with common mental health treatments and assessments before moving to anything physical like surgeries or hormones. Make of that what you will. Beyond that, it shouldn't matter what causes it when it comes to the bigger social questions around it.

However, if we want to debate it, there is no evidence that a trans person, prior to hormonal treatment, has significantly different hormones than anyone else of their sex and pretty much all brain studies are done with those post-hormonal treatment which affects the entire body including the brain as they're powerful medications. There is no way, looking at brains or hormones, to tell who is or is not trans pre-treatment. Hormones play an important role in the entire body as do all of our chromosomes, including our sex ones, which alter how many hormones - not just our sex ones - are processed in many parts of the body. That's why many diseases show up significantly more in one sex than the other even outside of our reproductive organs. There are many biological differences between the sexes - two females will always be genetically close than a female compared to a male, regardless of any other factors (though some men have significantly more tits than I've ever had). I have not seen evidence that that has anything to do with being trans though. And really, mental and physical aren't entirely separate, many conditions have intertwining both - our mind is not entirely divorced from our bodies, our bodies are the only way we exist or experience anything.

Also, yes, to those who think it's clever, please don't bring intersex people into trans discussions like debate pawns for trans advocacy. There are male intersex people and female intersex people. Intersex people are those who have a disorder of sexual development, our reproductive organs and other parts of our endocrine system grow wrong - some to the point of being lethal without treatment. Some intersex conditions kill people - that's basic information about it. Does that sound like a normal part of a distribution spectrum of sexes or a medical concern? There is no intersex gamete, having no gametes has never excluded someone from their sex, there is no intersex sex or sexes, we do not in any way disprove human dimorphism (in fact with the range of medical issues unrelated to reproduction intersex people are at high rate of having, we only seem to prove how important it is to health) and - as been studied over and over - we are no more likely to be trans than anyone else, there is no connection between gender variances and being intersex and people really should stop acting like intersex conditions prove anything about trans people. It doesn't, they're unrelated, and it's very tiring being either a gotcha or pitted against trans people.

Gentlygently · 27/10/2018 21:30

I don't understand your reply to BiologyMatters.

Of course men and women know whether they are men and women by biology (pregnancy etc). But she/he asked apart from biology, what is it that makes a woman a woman, if not purely gender stereotypes?

NotMeOhNo · 27/10/2018 21:31

Could you explain what you mean here? I'm puzzled by it:
there are obviously different emotional responses between both sexes otherwise there wouldn't be much need for feminism would there?
Do you mean women behave differently, or have different personalities and interests to men?

Ohallright · 27/10/2018 21:34

First of all define what you mean by trans. The umbrella used by Stonewall is immense and varies and you will get a different answer depending on your definition. It’s a bit like saying are Labour supporters rich? Some groups are and some aren’t and depends how you define rich.

Babykoala1 · 27/10/2018 21:34

I get that it's down to biology but it's the biology that we aren't able to see that I'm talking about (which so happens to relate to homosexuality as neither has been conclusively proven) Really don't understand why its so hard to believe or even to be open to believing that something in a trans persons genetic make up may not be typical of the rest of the population. Even if it was a mental health condition there is nothing wrong with that however I believe the primary cause is due to genetics in the same way that it is widely believed that depression is caused by chemical imbalances.

OP posts:
Spiderdemon · 27/10/2018 21:39

people will shout you down because they forget that the way they feel about trans individuals is the way that people felt about gay individuals 40/50/60 years ago (and still do), that they shouldn’t be in our bathrooms, changing areas or refuges because they were “mentally ill”, “sexual predators” and would “corrupt the young” by “turning them gay”.

But nobody is saying that they don't want to share these spaces with trans people are they? Aren't we saying we don't want to allow access to people who would pretend to be trans to have access to those spaces?

Straight people never pretended to be gay to get access to gay minority rights & services.

nottakingthisanymore · 27/10/2018 21:43

What? I’m .....just what?

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