To believe that trans is not a mental health condition

[Babykoala1]

Preparing to get flamed of course and expecting feminists to come out in full fource. Just as the title suggests, I do not believe that trans is a mental health condition as much as homosexuality or even intersex would be considered a mental health condition. I'm sure here on Mumsnet I am in the minority and I will be absolutely flamed for having the audacity to compare it to homosexuality. But really? Why is homosexuality accepted as a part of biology yet trans can be automatically discarded as a mental health issue?

I'll get my coat

Science doesn’t support sexed brains.

Yawn

I don't believe its a physical condition, I think it's a genetic condition that unless you start picking into peoples brains and looking for chromosomal mutations or hormone imbalances it cannot be proved or disapproved. With homesexuality it has been widely accepted as a cause, not so much for trans.

YaNbu.

But people will shout you down because they forget that the way they feel about trans individuals is the way that people felt about gay individuals 40/50/60 years ago (and still do), that they shouldn’t be in our bathrooms, changing areas or refuges because they were “mentally ill”, “sexual predators” and would “corrupt the young” by “turning them gay”.

“There is none so blind as those that will not see”.

If transgenderism isn't a mental health condition then no medical resources should be allocated to deal with it, and certainly no NHS funds. Transgender people can just accept that their body doesn't match their gender identity or they can have procedures privately as cosmetic surgery.

I will certainly be pushing this point with my Conservative MP if it looks like self-ID remains on the cards and we all know how much Conservatives like to limit State involvement and funding. I did wonder at one point if that was the attraction of self-ID for the Conservatives.

I'm with you Babykoala1. I don't usually comment on here as the vitriol and misunderstanding is too depressing. It will be like all other bigotry. In 40 years time those who think it's a mental illness/choice will be muttering their transphobic ideas in their nursing homes whilst their grandchildren roll their eyes - same as the remaining racists and homophobes from our grandparents' generation.

And by the way the 'it's biology' argument is bollocks. A basic understanding of the intersex population should be enough to show that physical sex is a spectrum (with two distribution peaks for the main sexes) - where are these people supposed to fit in a binary approach to gender? On an analogous basis it's not rocket science to realise that a person's internal perception of their gender can differ from their sex and isn't some sort of mental health condition to be managed or fixed.

YANBU. Lots of people agree with you. It used to be most people. I'm not sure if it is or not any more.

I'm not up on the terminology really but, as I understand it, you would be an intersectional feminist. One that believes the term female is broad and inclusive enough to cover anyone who would like it to apply to them and that groups of women should work together to support the unique needs of other groups of women (eg black women suffer specific inequalities that white women don't and transwomen suffer specific inequalities that biological women don't).

I suppose the belief that transwomen are mentally ill men used to belong to radical feminism. But it might be too mainstream to be called radical now, I don't know.

Personally, I believe it's a mental illness. Most of my friends probably either agree or have never thought about it. But my more feminist/politically aware/liberal type friends are all intersectional feminists and all disagree with me quite strongly.

Apologies if the above is a load of outdated bull I'm not really that clear on current thought.

I'm not talking about physical differences with the brain to males or females, there are obviously different emotional responses between both sexes otherwise there wouldn't be much need for feminism would there? Also, hormones play a huge part in sex characteristics which can vary greatly in each individual yet both sexes have "typical" hormonal responses. Surely if your hormones are playing a certain role in your body that perhaps is typical of the other sex, this may end up affecting your sexual orientation and even the way in which you perceive yourself.

Gender dysphoria is listed in the DSM-IV (diagnostic manual for mental health conditions). To be trans you essentially have to suffer with gender dysphoria. So yes, it is technically a mental health condition but there’s nothing wrong with that. It’s the negative stigma atttached to mental health that is the problem here. See Youtuber Calvin Garret (a trans boy) who supports this description of trans people and highlights some of the struggles trans people face because of their condition (yes, condition- you don’t suddenly decide to feel uncomfortable in your own body for no reason and being trans isn’t easy or fun for most).

But feeling like a woman or feeling like a man isn't a real thing.

It's not genetics telling men that they must be women with the wrong parts and chromosomes and hormones because they like wearing dresses, it's growing up in a society that says dresses=girls.

A basic understanding of the intersex population should be enough to show that physical sex is a spectrum (with two distribution peaks for the main sexes)

I'm more interested in the biology than anything else

I really don't think you are interested in biology if you are willing to use the phrase assigned at birth. Sex is not assigned, it's observed.

Gay people were only asking to be treated the same as everyone else. Transpeople are demanding extra rights. The demanding is a recurrent theme. Dr James Barrett, President of the British Association of Gender Identity Specialists at the time he gave evidence to the Transgender Equality Inquiry in 2015, noted that transgender patients generally feel that clinicians should provide them with whatever treatment they desire regardless of the opinions of the clinician as to the usefulness of a procedure.

I don't agree that it's societal either. There are fundamental differences between males and females like it or not, I believe if we lived in a total androgynous society there would still be trans people.

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/06/is-transgender-ideology-making-the-uks-mental-health-crisis-worse/

"It’s arguable that trans youngsters are helped on their path totransitioning gender at the cost of receiving treatment for other issues they may have. One study revealed that over half of teens with gender dysphoria (the medical term for those who feel they are in the wrong body) also had other serious mental healthissues; another study put thefigurefor those withgender dysphoria who have other psychiatric problems as high as 75 per cent. Those transitioning gender are also likely to have suffered abuse, according to another study which revealed thathalf of those transitioning had experienced some form of sexual violencein their lives; in one instance, a trans male was the only one from his group of 30 who had notexperiencedsuch abuse. Are we sure that gender reassignment treatment is really the best way of helping such people?"

There are fundamental differences between males and females like it or not

Other than biological differences, what are they?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with having a mental illness. Nobody with a mental illness should be ashamed of themselves.

Based on my experience and research, transgenderism is related to mental illness. However, this is not a bad thing. Trans people have nothing to be ashamed of, and they should be proud of themselves.

I don't think feminism comes from there being different emotional responses in men and women, but from the need for equal treatment of women, rather than oppression with its root cause in biological differences.

I think you could learn a lot more about the basic of biology, and how hormones work, what they do, etc. They can't play a different role in one person that is more typical of the opposite sex, because the (sex) hormones relate to your biology, so unless you have the wrong biology (as in disorders of sex development), that can't happen.

Rather, someone might feel like they want to do things that have been considered typical of the other sex, and might feel this very strongly; combine that with a predisposition to a body dysmorphia, and you could easily have the conditions needed for them to think they are trans. Hormonal responses shape our brains in part, along with interactions with environment, and both of those could result in the brains of someone trans appearing to be different than those of someone of their same natal sex, but that doesn't mean that it is something inborn.

Instead, it is more likely to be caused by the rigid gender roles in society, and if those were more fluid, then people might be able to accept that they could present however they liked, without the need to call themselves the other sex, or go through life changing surgery to be accepted.

Physical sex is not a spectrum. There are two biological sexes, and few things that can go wrong in the development of certain individuals. It's totally different from something being a spectrum, with normal distribution between two extremes.

Intersex conditions are disorders of sexual development, not variations of normal. Some people are born with only one leg. That's a medical disorder, not a variation of normal.

I believe if we lived in a total androgynous society there would still be trans people.

How would that work then? Because if you take away gender stereotypes then what is there aside from biology?

Do you have any links/ further info on the hormone stuff. I don’t understand what you mean.

What are the fundamental differences between males and females that aren't biology? I'd be really interested to know.

Well obviously biologyMatters you are more interested in biology than me hense your username. Your sex is not always observed at birth as there is more to sex than genitals (no I'm not talking about "feelings", I'm talking about people that have different physical characteristics where it may not be clear which gender they are) but apparently intersex shouldn't be discussed within this debate..

There are fundamental differences between males and females like it or not
Yeah, like different genitals, reproductive systems and the absence of a Y chromosome in the cells of females.

Intersex is not trans so it’s not relevant here.