Would you consider me transphobic?

[TheSkyisAlive]

First of all I believe that gender dysphoria is a mental illness and should not be treated with hormones and surgery. Having said that, it's their body and their choice and if that's what a person wants, they shouldn't face abuse or live in fear.

But just because you identify as a female does not mean you are one. Even after surgery.

You do not understand what it is like to be a female and the problems we face. You do not get to speak on behalf of women. You should not compete in female only sports.

Does that make me transphobic or simply someone who does not want the females to be second class citizens?

Comparing women who recognise objective, biological differences between the sexes to pre-war anti-semites was a nice touch, though.

Which is kind of ironic, given that Rat went in for a nasty bit of antisemitism themselves.

I cba if I,m called a terf or a transphobe. because honestly the goalposts move all the time. nothing less than total capitulation to the TRA's demands will brand you a terf or a transphobe so why bother.
There demands are getting more and more ridiculous, its like a cult
I dont believe that just because you say you are a woman you actually really become a woman which is what the TRA's want to enshrine in law and I will never agree with that.

Jezebelz!! Dude, it's my halloween namechange Where's yours??

Which is kind of ironic, given that Rat went in for a nasty bit of antisemitism themselves.

Funny story, my grandfather escaped from the Gulag.

Oh no, wait. It's not funny.

it's superficial to think that it’s simply our sexual organs that seperate men and women and their sex based needs. Its our deep experiences of being biological women that shape our needs - so experiences of sexual harassment, lower wages, being main a carer, lack of career progression, abortion, miscarriage, infertility, endometriosis, breast cancer, periods, breast feeding, giving birth, being pregnant, being on the receiving end of male domestic violence, HRT, menopause, struggling to break female stereotypes and so on. How can a trans male bodied person fully represent woman in politics? Why can’t biological women represent themselves?

I don't know where I stand on the transphobic/not transphobic spectrum. I want everyone to be able to live in a way that makes them feel comfortable, free from prejudice, hatred or harm. But I include women in that, and I don't want to see our hard-won rights eroded to make space for anyone - man, transwoman, alien from Venus.

It's the extremes I have a problem with. The men who are using the increased visibility of trans issues to enter women's spaces, either with criminal or misogynistic intent. (Notice I call them men, not transwomen, because I don't believe they are genuinely trans; I think they are anti-women men.)

I have a problem with pre-pubertal children being at risk of being set along a path that could lead to hormone treatment by a minority of extreme-ideologue parents, just because they (the children) express preferences for toys/colours/clothes etc that are associated with the opposite gender. But then I hate the genderisation of such items anyway.

I have a problem with girls being put at increased risk due to policies framed to put the rights of young transwomen above their own (e.g. the Guides).

I have a problem with the more vocal minority - at least I assume they're a minority - of transwomen shouting about female-centred language being exclusionary or transphobic, a trend that may if unchecked gradually lead to the erasure of meaningful biologically-descriptive terminology, e.g. the Guardian referring to "menstruators" rather than "women and transmen who menstruate".

I don't believe someone of one biological sex can become the other biological sex. I do believe they should be able to live as a member of that opposite biological sex if that is what gives them peace, and should have their chosen name and pronouns respected.

I resent that so many of the problems trans people encounter is because of the violent tendencies of some men, yet it is women and girls who have to give up their rights and spaces to ensure the former's protection - at the risk of their own safety, in some cases, because of the reality of men posing as transwomen to gain access to those spaces as per my first point (e.g. female only prisons, refuges).

I do not agree that a man who builds his career in a male-dominated industry making full use of his male privilege should, once he has reached a senior role, be able to wear a dress and call himself by a female name once or twice a week and receive an industry honour designed to reward women.

It's very difficult to find myself on the 'wrong' side of progress; I consider myself inclusive, non-discriminatory, tolerant etc, but I look at the above list and think "but this stuff isn't right, or logical, or safe. How can it be that this stuff is being seen as right, and logical, and safe?"

Rat, funny story, members of my family died in concentration camps. Oh no, that's not funny either. The myth of the wealth of the Jews is still just that, a myth put about by antisemites.

OP no your not transphobic and quite frankly the comparisons to homosexuality by some posters are ridiculous at best, offensive at worst. For me the debate on self ID rests on what the costs and risks are to women and young children. It is not acceptable to take away boundaries and safeguards and I never stop being surprised that many that shriek "transphobia " are of5en (not always) the people who are unable to accept these risks exist.

@kalinkafoxtrot45 completely agree with your whole post!

Me too.

I'll retract it entirely Saskia, happily.

The point I was trying to make is that homosexuality was previously viewed as a mental illness. People were put in a room given drugs and vomited and defecated in aversion therapy. Aversion therapy is still available. Some people still believe homosexuality is a mental illness.

People who believe they are born into the wrong body whether men to women or women to men, have the right to transition.

If you don't want to be seen by a nurse regardless of the reason you have the right to refuse that care. If you don't believe that someone born with a penis or a vagina can then participate in a sport with those who were born with the opposite sexual organs you can write to the sporting body that controls that sport. If you don't want to use a communal changing room with the risk of someone who is previously a man being there then don't.

The OP stated that they believed 'gender dysphoria is a mental illness' I'm not sure of the level of his or her medical training, but they hang their argument on this statement.

TitOfTheIceberg That’s a very well articulated and thought provoking post.

TitOfTheIceberg - I totally agree. Thank you.

Rat, thank you

I have mixed veiws.

I have noticed that when people talk about trans on MN and in social media they are mainly referring to men transitioning to women, I don’t see many people discussing women transitioning to men, I know there is a reason behind that and that the whole discussion about men transitioning to women being a risk to women (because they have a penis and a penis is like a weapon).

I have trans friends (women transitioning to men), I respect their choices and I’m not bothered what they see theirselves as but when it comes down to men transitioning to females and the whole toilets, changing rooms and prisons thing should be decided by what genitals that person has. I do think there’s a risk with men pretending to be women to get access to women only places in order to commit sexual crimes.

Lots of people claiming it isnt an illness... so can I ask why the NHS spend so much money treating it?

No you're not transphobic op.

Goodness, what an original thread. It's only been done to death several hundred times on MN in the last year alone.

Quicker I'm totally with you that someone with genuine dysphoria should be able to transition and be able to live a peaceful life. If self ID happens though who decides who is genuine and who isn't? Where are the checks and balances? In the examples you've given it's highly unlikely I would be able to refuse that caregiver. I would have no valid reason to ask a sporting body to not allow that person to compete.

I think most people under 25 would say you are transphobic and most people over 25 would say you aren't.

I don't think you are at all and completely agree with you that it's a mental illness.

The anorexia analogy works well in explaining the difference between transphobia and 'anti trans agenda'.

Transphobia is the same as, 'omg, you're anorexic?! Ugh, that's so disgusting, go eat a sandwich. You're weak and pathetic, how can anyone stand to be around you, you're so stupid. Did ana eat your brainz' (I've experienced all those things, they're not hyperbole)

'Anti trans agenda is the same as, 'anorexia is a mental illness. You are not fat, it's just that your brain is telling you something about yourself that isn't true. You're a person with the same worth as everyone else who should get the same respect as everyone else but I am not going to stand here and agree with you that you're fat when you definitely aren't.'

I don't care about being called transphobic or a terf any more. I'm too angry about all that is going on. I'm not feeling kindly and I'm so far past caring about males claiming to be female. They are not and have no idea what it is to be one. And they don't have to be KIND it's a one way street. Call me what you like, I DON'T CARE about your feeeeeeelings. I am actually a nice caring person but I am done with being nice about this. Because give an inch and then they whinge for a mile and on and on. No. You are not having my kindness any more because it is being abused and the safety of women and girls is being dismissed as of no consequence. Fuck. That.

Miscible that's because there's a lot at stake for people on both sides of the debate. Feel free to read another thread if it's boring you

Yeah, I'm sorry Saskia, I posted in haste and it was wrong on several levels what I wrote

What I was trying to say was that it's something that could easily be bought into as a self-evident truth, but it's actually just a harmful generalisation!

Whether or not we agree, to me something like "women don't have penises" is equally something people would say "yeah, that's obviously true", but is actually not true of all women - but it does disenfranchise trans women. And to me - and to others - they are women in ways other than their anatomy.

I'm not saying this to try and get us to agree, but to properly retract my statement, I hope that's clear. I really am sorry.

That is telling in itself Miscible. I hope to continue reading the same discussion until all of society wakes up to what is happening. It is damaging to women and even more so to the young and vulnerable.