Would you consider me transphobic?

[TheSkyisAlive]

First of all I believe that gender dysphoria is a mental illness and should not be treated with hormones and surgery. Having said that, it's their body and their choice and if that's what a person wants, they shouldn't face abuse or live in fear.

But just because you identify as a female does not mean you are one. Even after surgery.

You do not understand what it is like to be a female and the problems we face. You do not get to speak on behalf of women. You should not compete in female only sports.

Does that make me transphobic or simply someone who does not want the females to be second class citizens?

The fact you’ve said in the OP that it’s a mental illness and shouldn’t be treated with hormones and surgery FOR ME tips you into the transphobic category.

HOWEVER personally I do have my concerns about the problematic nature of self ID and I feel conflicted between my wish to live and let live and my discomfort at something like a man who self IDs as a woman being my daughters Guide leader or her having to share intimate facilities with a teen boy who self IDs as female when she would be going through a time of bodily transformation and the embarrassment and sensitivity that would bring (puberty).

I also fundamentally oppose the Labour party’s appointment of a trans female as women’s officer; LGBTQ+ officer - yes. Women’s officer - no.

Short answer is yes, your fundamental belief is what I’d call transphobic but it’s not as if you are rejecting the notion of being born in the wrong body outright.

Sticking the word 'phobic' on the end of everything is a cop out and a way of shutting down legitimate debate.

I'm happy to admit I'm 'transphobic' if it means I believe biology trumps feelings and hard fought for spaces for females should be protected above the wishes and wants of some men.

Calling me '.....phobic' doesn't bother me in the least

A lot of this issue revolves around a redefinition of words.

Ie Woman no longer means adult human female, or is it womxn.
Trans is not a very small number of people with sexual disphoria(?) but encompasses drag artists, cross dressers, and anyone who feels a bit womanish.
Lesbians are no longer females who are are attracted to other females.

So in this light, I redefine transphobia as anyone who does not buy into whatever trans peolple say. Which means me, you and anyone with critical thought.

Of course the downside of this, is that there is such a thing as “real” transphobia, which is hidden amongst all the ridiculous baying at anyone who does not affirm the trans cult. There is also a huge amount of misogyny amoungst the trans movement, which is allowing it to increase.

I never thought I would think Stonewall a misogynistic organisation, but their treatment of lesbians is just that. I used to fund-raise for them....
Labour always had a whiff of misogyny at CLC level. It is now endemic in the organisation. I used to vote and canvas for them.

When you say am I transphobic?, you have to define your words, as words do not have the same certainty anymore.

Slightly off topic, but I don't want to be labelled as a CIS woman. I'm just a woman. (And yes I have the ovaries and wombe etc to prove it!)

Not transphobic, wise.

Why is "believing you were born in the wrong body" not a mental health issue? Genuinely.

It is a belief. Not a provable fact.

If I do not unquestionably accept that this belief is true, does that make me transphobic?

Thing is, this is a situation where the rights and wants of one group directly affect the rights and wants of another group. Which makes it very difficult to move.

In general I follow a utilitarian philosophy of ethics - I believe that the action which should be chosen is the one that causes least harm to the greatest number of people. It is quite clear in this situation what the greatest number of people is - there are far more women potentially negatively affected than there are transwomen. However, it is very very easy to turn this around as persecuting a minority, which is what makes the whole thing so volatile.

My personal feeling is I think I have no problem with fully transitioned transwomen being in female places. However, I also think it should not be possible to transition on a whim, and it should be governed by a set of legal and medical restrictions. I also think under 18's who want to transition should be discouraged until they are adults.

However, I accept that I am not fully informed on all the issues, (and thus may well be talking complete bollocks) and I feel very sad for the women and transwomen who both feel alienated and ignored on this issue. There is no good way forward.

The fact you’ve said in the OP that it’s a mental illness and shouldn’t be treated with hormones and surgery FOR ME tips you into the transphobic category

But that's a total contradiction?

Illness - needs treatment.

So to not be transphobic the position is that its not an illness BUT there should be medical treatment?

How can that position be anything other than a square circle?

How can believing your healthy body is “wrong” and you’re actually the opposite sex to what your material,y are, be anything other than a mental illness?

There is no evidence for a physiological or neurological basis for transgenderism.

That’s not to say it isn’t real, mental illness is very real, but the disordered thinking needs changing, not the body. This is why surgical transition is not effective treatment.

I have no idea by its considered kinder and more supportive to say “yes! Your healthy body is wrong! Become a life long medical patient (with side effects) and have life changing surgery with questionable outcomes!” Instead of “wear what you like, have whatever interests and hobbies you like, call yourself what you want, but please accept your healthy body as it is”.

For me, yes, I'd consider you transphobic and probably not a very comfortable person to be around as I've had some pretty unpleasant experiences with people with your views. I'd probably also assume you would be potentially unpleasant to my trans friends, would cause upset and would probably not much like me for being a "handmaiden" and wouldn't be that nice to me either.

So I'd avoid.

I think it’s my right to hold the belief that Transwomen (I use this as one word to denote the difference to Woman) are in fact not women. It is a Transwoman’s right to disagree with me and I respect that. I do not appreciate Transactivism at all..the likes of the, now, Cait Jenner or Lily M or Paris Lees are Transwomen but as Woman they do not speak for me and have no understanding of what is to be biologically female..just like I have no understanding of what it feels like to be in the wrong body.

@FFSFFSFFS

I know I’m going to mince my reply but here goes

To me what the OP says COULD be inferred as “well if someone’s ultimate goal is to physically become the person they feel they should have been born as through surgery and hormones tough shit, it’s a mental illness and you can’t get the operation”

Which could also be read as “let that person suffer and be permenanetly denied their true self”

have articulated that so badly

This sums up the ridiculousness of it.

I don't think you are necessarily transphobic.
I share your opinion but I'm not hostile towards transgender people. Maybe it's ignorance of all the facts?
I think if we weren't all brainwashed into how girls and boys should behave and dress then maybe less young people would not feel they don't 'fit'
It's society that is fucked up when people think there is something weird if a boy wants to follow what are considered feminine ways or a girl wants to follow so called masculine ways.
If you aren't comfortable being what society dictates your gender should be then I seems reasonable you may want to change your gender.

Would I be considered homophobic for saying the following?

First of all I believe that homosexuality is a mental illness and gay people should not have relationships with one another. Having said that, it's their body and their choice and if that's what a person wants, they shouldn't face abuse or live in fear.

But just because you identify as a gay couple does not mean you should have the same rights as straight people. Even though gay marriage is legal.

You do not understand what it is like to be a female and the problems we face.

I'd say that the problems the trans community face are far greater than just being a woman, but then as a hetrosexual male what do I know.

I don't believe being trans is a mental illness, all foetuses begin female then some develop to become male it makes perfect sense to me that it can go a bit wrong from time to time.

If you want to deny people the opportunity of equality and the feeling they belong then I'd say yes you are transphobic. Sport is an odd one as some female athletes have hyperandrogenism and if we start filtering out male to female trans we should probably filter out females who produce significantly greater male hormones to be fair to the more normal female athletes.

All foetuses do not start out as female. The sex of a foetus is determined from the moment of conception when its either an XX or XY.
The sex organs all look the same until around 7 weeks I think when the male foetus responds to androgens and develops their sex organs

Harmless "I'd say that the problems the trans community face are far greater than just being a woman, but then as a hetrosexual male what do I know"

Not much, lovey - you forgot the woman who is murdered every three days by a violent man. They are why we have single sex spaces, because we can't tell who is a good guy and who is a bad guy. I also can't tell who is a transwoman (as in gender dysphoria, engaging in treatment and support) and who is a fetishist and who is a rapist masquerading as a transwoman in order to access female spaces.

The dead women, the hundreds of dead women, are never mentioned in the boo-hoo-hoo of the trans argument. The trans community problems are not worse than female community problems, they just complain more.

Actually, that's not true - they don't complain more, it's that they are listened to!

you forgot the woman who is murdered every three days by a violent man

..who is either her partner or ex-partner.

because we can't tell who is a good guy and who is a bad guy

If your partner or ex-partner is following you into the ladies' toilets he's probably a bad guy. HTH.

No, you're not. But then, I understand what a phobia is, just as I understand what a woman is and what a man is.

I'd say that the problems the trans community face are far greater than just being a woman, but then as a hetrosexual male what do I know.

I broadly agree with this (and I'm a herterosexual woman) but more generally the problems faced by both are different and neither should be minimised.

The issue is when the rights of one group counteract the rights of another (I.e. Female only spaces, sports). Careful thinking is needed to navigate these issues. But none of that is happening as each side simply wants their own rights prioritised with no thought to the other.

Believing you are an adult human female (woman) on the inside, when you are an adult human male (man) is a mental health problem. If all avenues have been explored, and gender dysphoria is persisting, then, by all means, allow transition. But transition still doesn't make you a woman. It makes you a man with a mental health problem who falsely believes he is a woman.

Considering most gender dysphoria kids grow out of it to become gender NC or homosexual adults, the current ideology of transing gender-NC children IS HOMOPHOBIC.

The idea that there are gendered souls or essences which can somehow end up in the wrong sex body is a metaphysical belief.

This.

You are certainly not transphobic in thinking that a person cannot really change their sex, despite maybe appearing and thinking like a person of the opposite sex following treatment. Nor for believing trans people should be allowed to use opposite biological sex's spaces or compete in their sport if they have an unfair advantage.