Would you consider me transphobic?

[TheSkyisAlive]

First of all I believe that gender dysphoria is a mental illness and should not be treated with hormones and surgery. Having said that, it's their body and their choice and if that's what a person wants, they shouldn't face abuse or live in fear.

But just because you identify as a female does not mean you are one. Even after surgery.

You do not understand what it is like to be a female and the problems we face. You do not get to speak on behalf of women. You should not compete in female only sports.

Does that make me transphobic or simply someone who does not want the females to be second class citizens?

If I had body dysmorphia and believed that one of my limbs was a cat, and on that basis asked for that limb to be amputated, would it be considered unethical to amputate the limb?

Now tell me why it is ethical to chop genitalia off because someone has gender dysphoria?

That's why I said most. I absolutely agree that gay, bisexual and lesbian people can be attracted to transpeople of their non-attracted sex. But most don't, because, genitals. Genitals actually form a big part of someone's attraction to another person. Inconvenient for some people, sure, but it's true. And nothing to do with social conditioning. Certainly not transphobic.

Know what's homophobic, though? Telling a lesbian that they're a disgusting vagina fetishist and that she needs cock.

twelve pages and whilst the overwhelming majority think the op is NOT transphobic (because she clearly isn’t transphobic) a handful of posters come on to present absolutely NO argument to show that she is. That’s why it’s so hard to argue with TRAs or people keen to support their agenda. You present clear and logical, rational and intelligent debate and they come back with “you is a nasty transphobe, you is”. That’s as far as their argument extends.

OkMaybeNot I actually agree with you. Most monosexuals do not have the "natural ability" to find trans people of the generally non-attractive sex, attractive.

But we are dealing in beliefs. Other people believe differently. No doubt plenty of represdes homosexuals truly believed they were not "capable".

But my point is that while we are allowed to believe whatever we believe the truths of these matters to be, that does not make people who believe differently "phobic". You have your beliefs about humans sexuality, they have theirs. You are not phobic just because someone else disagrees with your take, IYSWIM.

In my travels I have met people who believe we are all naturally bisexual. But most of us get conditioned into repressing this nad believing ourselves to be hetero. They are free to believe that but that does not make those of us who believe different bi-phobic and wanting to erase bi people (other bits or psin and rehotic are available).

The belief alone does not make someone phobic, but actively going out of your way to try to convince gay and lesbian people to consider having sex with the opposite sex IS homophobic. It's not accepting their sexuality and actively trying to cure them of it. It's harrassment.

People, gay and straight, have the right to be attracted to whom they like without feeling pressured to 'try' something they don't think they will.

It's rapey to think otherwise.

The belief alone does not make someone phobic, but actively going out of your way to try to convince gay and lesbian people to consider having sex with the opposite sex IS homophobic.

Some people are like that. They see what they believe to be a social injustice or people otherwise needlessly missing out, and they feel like they have to flap their gums about it.

I will agree that there are ways of doing things though. Having a general discussion about sex outside of marriage, or the phenomena of people who are homosexual or bisexual in orientation but who exclude the same sex from their dating pools, or those who exclude trans, is a different kind of thing than pestering individuals.

If a specific individual in the 70s tells you they do not want to have sex outside of marriage then it would be wrong to harass them about it. If a specific person you suspect is a repressed homosexual or bisexuals tells you they only want the opposite sex and does not want to discuss it, then leave them alone.

But the general phenomenon is bigger than specific individuals and their specific circumstances.

There I cannot agree that it is "homophobic" or "heterophobic" or anything else just to believe what you believe and to engage in general discussions about it, release Youtube video pieces on it, etc.

In fact still not sure I would call it as homophobic to harass a specific homosexual you suspect is letting prejudice or conditioning interfere in their exclusions, that it is heterophobic to do the same to a person you suspect to be a repressed homo or bisexual.

But it would still be wrong to pester individuals, of course.

I have never seen gay men being harassed online and called penis fetishists for not wanting to have sex with a transman.

I have never seen a transman tweet "My vagina is a male vagina and until you have had it, you don't know whether you would like it."

Wonder why that is.

I will never accept that it's not homophobic to try to cure a gay person of their sexuality. Which is essentially what these people are trying to do.

"How do you know you don't like cock if you don't try it? Come on, I'll make you feel good. Sex is better with a penis, you'll see."

Lesbians have been dealing with this shit since the dawn of time. Except it's always been men doing it. Now, it's men who say they're women, and therefore it's somehow a form of social justice rather than rampant homophobia and misogyny.

Gay men don't face this sort of pressure.

Prawnofthepatriarchy

Sigh. I didn't say Transgender Trend was trying to cure people. I said the founder of it belonged to a cult that promoted that. I was questioning her credentials and motivations. She goes on about her experience founding a school and training teachers etc as if the school was a success. It is interesting see what the people in Lewes and Ofsted have to say on the matter.

And subud is a cult.

I will never accept that it's not homophobic to try to cure a gay person of their sexuality. Which is essentially what these people are trying to do.

That is your spin though. Borne of the fact that you do not share the beliefs. Would you similarly portray the people who tried to talk about the phenomenan of gay and bi people excluding same sex in terms of someone trying to "cure them of their sexuality"? No, because then you agree that there is a problem with people excluding due to reasons of prejudice or conditioning.

Talk about them? No. You can talk about what you want.

The minute you start applying pressure to these individuals to change their sexual habits to include people you feel deserve inclusion, however, you cross a line.

If a gay person is happily gay and simply doesn't find the opposite sex attractive, who is that harming exactly? What discussion needs to be had? Why is it even a question?

Rat, why do you put so much effort into coming on these threads and spending a great deal of time telling women that they’re silly, paranoid and prejudiced hmm for having genuine and understandable and very logical concerns about very serious and real issues? Why??hmm

It's her space too. Someone ought to do it and, like in The City Of Gold And Lead, most people wither and die after a few months in the poisonous environment of the feminist section.

First of all I believe that gender dysphoria is a mental illness and should not be treated with hormones and surgery. Having said that, it's their body and their choice and if that's what a person wants, they shouldn't face abuse or live in fear.

But just because you identify as a female does not mean you are one. Even after surgery.

So they they shouldn't face abuse or live in fear except for people feeling free to opine ignorantly about their most intimate concerns? Yes YAT.

Yes I know that you don't agreee that people who ID as gay straight or lesbian similarly have the natural ability to be interested in the trans subsets, but that doesn't make the people who do homophobic. They believe that they are dealing with conditioning/prejudice too.

I'd call the belief that lesbians are only uninterested in penises because of their 'conditioning/prejudice' a homophobic belief.

Homosexual, not homogenderal.

...the phenomena of people who are homosexual or bisexual in orientation but who exclude the same sex from their dating pools.

On what basis are you describing someone who excludes the same sex from their dating pool as homo/bisexual? People define their own sexual orientation. It's not down to you.

Parts of your comment don't make any sense at all, JAPAB. Are you sure you didn't miss out a word or two?

Later on you say still not sure I would call it as homophobic to harass a specific homosexual you suspect is letting prejudice or conditioning interfere in their exclusions.

Harassing people for what you decide is their own good is obnoxious. And in the next paragraph you contradict yourself. I'm confused.

I found JAPAB's post incomprehensible, too.

OkMaybeNot The minute you start applying pressure to these individuals to change their sexual habits to

Yes agree. Trying to pressure someone who is 'saaving themselves for marriage', calling them prudes and other names, is not OK.

Having a general discussion about a generally occurring phenomon, attitude, or pattern of behaviour that you think is questionable or derives from questionable background prejudices/factors, and that cause people to needlesly miss out on relationships/sex etc, is a different beast.

The latter should not be conflated with the former.

FeminaSum I'd call the belief that lesbians are only uninterested in penises because of their 'conditioning/prejudice' a homophobic belief.

Again, only I suspect because you see no problem. If you think of cases were people did exclude for reasons of prejudice or conditioning (and surely you will agree that such has happened in human history) then the people who commented on this will get no such pejorative labels. Because then you agree with what them.

...the phenomena of people who are homosexual or bisexual in orientation but who exclude the same sex from their dating pools.

I'm trying to make sense of this too. My most charitable interpretation is that it might be about people who are gay, but rule out relationships with a same sex partner because of strong religious or cultural beliefs.

I might feel sorry for these people and think their situation is an unfair one. I'd find it completely inappropriate for someone to harass them and tell them that they need to try a same sex relationship because they'd like it, and that if they don't they're prejudiced and homophobic. So even if someone genuinely believes this applies to the trans situation (which I don't), telling lesbians that they should sleep with transwomen, and all the other 'cotton ceiling' rhetoric is still abhorrent.

Not to mention that the gay person in this scenario wouldn't be going around saying 'I'm gay but I'm too conservative to act on it' so it would be someone else making assumptions about that person's orientation. Again, not appropriate.

"Because then you agree with what them"

Stray 'what' there.

Again, only I suspect because you see no problem. If you think of cases were people did exclude for reasons of prejudice or conditioning (and surely you will agree that such has happened in human history) then the people who commented on this will get no such pejorative labels. Because then you agree with what them.

Okay, I don't understand.

How do you think sexual orientation works, exactly? Do you actually think that someone is sexually attracted to another person on the basis of that person's internal gender identity, not their sex - even though they cannot know what gender that person is until they ask, because it isn't about either biology or stereotypes?

JABAP What you are missing here, I think, is the fact that we're not talking about an academic discussion here. We are talking about people being told they are immoral to hold to an exclusive sexuality. I.E. it is immoral not to be inclusive in your sexuality. We saw the same thing in the 60s/70s with young women being told it was an ideologically/morally superior position to be "inclusive" and "open" in their sexuality by sleeping with more than one man, however uncomfortable that might make them.

As soon as someone starts bringing morality into the issue of who sleeps with whom, my alarm bells start ringing.

Younger, university-age women are particularly vulnerable to this, because the brain does not develop the full capacity for objective reasoning until around 25 years old, and because peer pressure is still overly-influential at that age.

Bigotbut I agree with you. The national GIDS clinic for under 18s is at the tavistock and staffed by mental health professionals including child psychotherapists, family therapists and clinical psychologists. They liaise with local camhs to help the young people get mental health services locally if they can't access it regularly enough at the tavistock. I is just not true that there is a universal fear among therapists that they cannot provide an exploratory space for young people with gid. It is true that there is appalling funding for child ad adolescent mental heath services generally so many young people with all kinds of difficulties don't get the help they should.
That doesn't mean that medicaltreatment in addition to therapy is never helpfu for gid. Nor does it mean that people with gid should have to have surgery to be accepted as the gender they believe they are.

Farfrom Your use of the word "universal" is odd. I don't think anyone suggested that this fear was "universal", just that some people were concerned about the situation for gender therapists in the UK (and given that we're talking about the UK, I also don't understand why Bigotbut chose to use an American link in response to those concerns).

I mean there is not a common fear among therapists. I don't know what you mean by 'gender therapists'. Most young people see trained mental health professions/ therapists as above. Some will have additional consultation from gids staff to help them but most won't.