Would you consider me transphobic?

[TheSkyisAlive]

First of all I believe that gender dysphoria is a mental illness and should not be treated with hormones and surgery. Having said that, it's their body and their choice and if that's what a person wants, they shouldn't face abuse or live in fear.

But just because you identify as a female does not mean you are one. Even after surgery.

You do not understand what it is like to be a female and the problems we face. You do not get to speak on behalf of women. You should not compete in female only sports.

Does that make me transphobic or simply someone who does not want the females to be second class citizens?

No you’re not transphobic but there are plenty (the hard of thinking) who can’t distinguish between gender and sex and will think you are.

I find it really odd when people can't see the parallels between homophobia and transphobia. LGBT organisations are set up to support LGBTs as they face similar prejudices and LGBT people are generally friends and allies of one another (with a few notable exceptions).

You aren't transphobic. The idea that there are gendered souls or essences which can somehow end up in the wrong sex body is a metaphysical belief. You don't share that belief. You don't think that legislation should be made on the basis of that belief. Sounds sensible to me.

Calling gender critical women transphobic is rather like calling an atheist anti-Christian for saying she doesn't believe in God or want the state to mandate religious belief.

Transphobe.

Don't worry, you've found your people here on MN, specifically the feminist boards.

Honestly, the efforts they go to to convince themselves they're not transphobic are phenomenal; the constant justification, explanation and mental gymnastics to explain obvious prejudice as the noble defence of women and girls. "It's not transphobia if..." - you'll fit right in.

I completely agree with everything you said OP. It is a mental illness & needs treating.

I think it's overuse has made it a meaningless term.

It now seems to be not backing completely some quite extreme positions and silencing questioning or safeguarding concerns.

The right winger thing is similar - seems to be by US posters or poster saping them - sort of equivalent to branding you evil and everything you say.

Well as apparently discusding female biology problems is 'transphobic'.
Mentioning pregnancy is 'transphobic'
Periods are 'transphobic'.
Being born a woman and stating that biological fact is 'transphobic'.

I guess most women are seen as 'transphobic' these days.

I think it's overuse has made it a meaningless term.

Oh that's handy, so now it's meaningless to be called one?

Another fantastic reason why no-one on MN is a transphobe!

I guess most women are seen as 'transphobic' these days.

"Someone called me a transphobe for saying some stuff. None of these things I said were transphobic, so then nothing I said was!! except for all of the other transphobic things I said "

Of course you are transphobic. People can soften it all they want with this ridiculous 'gender critical' crap, but realistically it amounts to the same thing.

How do you know this is a mental illness? What makes you so sure that it won't emerge that these people actually have a chromosomal anomaly that is causing this? Genetics is an incredibly complex field with a lot still to learn, who knows what is ahead.

It is incredibly arrogant to shout these people down with 'you have a mental illness'. That is how gay people used to be treated by the majority. I believe some day people will be as ashamed and shocked at the transphobia crap as we are now about how gay people were treated in the past.

And before yet another poster shouts that this is not comparable - I am only making the comparison because of the accusation of mental illness. I actually find it incredibly patronising to suggest people have a mental illness when there is no evidence at all to suggest that this is so.

The issue of women's spaces is completely separate. I don't believe those beliefs make you homophobic. Just all the other crap you posted.

I agree with you. I am really concerned about the use of hormones and surgery to correct what is essentially a societal problem. In an ideal world people would not be expected to conform to rigid gender stereotypes. The need for “gender reassignment” would simply not arise. We are having the wrong debate and it frustrates me that the medical profession is colluding with this.

I don’t think what you say makes you transphobic.

I am with you OP. I fully agree with your first post.

RatUnholyRolyPoly I've read your posts over many months - and they have certainly helped lead me to that very conclusion.

Oh that's handy, so now it's meaningless to be called one?

Unfortunately, yes, when you get called a transphobe for saying that women don't have penises, or that rapists shouldn't be in female prisons, or that men can't get pregnant. It renders the term meaningless.

Funny how the actual, horribly offensive transphobic comments that are posted in places like 4chan or KiwiFarms don't attract the vitriol that MN does, though. But then most posters on those sites are male.

Well that's funny bigKiteFlying, I only started using the word these last few weeks, I used to avoid it at all costs so as to avoid alienating the people who i would try and understand. But now I think, "what's the point? I'm calling that spade a spade!!"

Transphobia is anything that gets in the way of transactivists getting what they want. Both of these are infinitely moveable like the proverbial goalposts. Stonewall’s definition of transgender is so wide and woolly that it includes everyone.

Existing as a woman is transphobic.

Existing as homosexual is transphobic.

Why anyone would consider basing laws for everyone on this woolly ideology is beyond comprehension.

FeminaSun, yes it is funny how men on those forums can be overtly transphobic, up to and including threats of violence, but nothing is ever said to them. A women states she is, urrm, a woman, and it's literal violence. This is why I don't believe this ideology has anything to do with transpeople, it's an offshoot of mens' rights activism.

The word transphobic is often thrown around to make women feel they shouldn’t be discussing safe guarding concerns or having factually discussing male bodied people being in female bodied spaces. Transactivists demand no debate about issues directly effecting biological women.

RatRolyPoly - It wasn't anti-semitic to say in pre-war Germany that the Jews were rich; in general they were.

No they weren't. Jews were no more or less likely to be wealthy than any other German. The only people who suggest otherwise are antisemites.

I actually find it incredibly patronising to suggest people have a mental illness when there is no evidence at all to suggest that this is so.

I completely agree with this. To dismiss it as mental illness because it doesn't suit your agenda is low indeed.

The issue of women's spaces is completely separate. I don't believe those beliefs make you homophobic. Just all the other crap you posted.

And totally agree with this too. There are clearly lots of issues to sort out, female sports, women only spaces, self identification.

However the polarised nature of the debate is making this impossible to discuss.

One side denies that any of this is a problem. The other side denies the legitimacy of the trans position.

Sorry but I'm loving the new unholy RatRolyPoly! 

Let's a call a spade a spade and if you're a spade then why not just own it!

"You can believe whatever you want about trans people so long as you treat them with the same dignity and respect they afford you."

Certainly I would treat transpeople with dignity and respect, as I would any person. Does my dignity and respect have to extend to agreeing they can swap to the toilets/facilities/groups which were historically segregated on SEX, though? does my dignity and respect have to include agreeing that biology is bunk and there's not really any way of defining 'a woman' other than 'I'd really like to be a woman, so I am one and YOU can't do anything about it' and to accept that I'll be interviewed by the police if I say 'a woman is an adult human female'?

I'm glad to learn that you think those statements of mine are 'almost entirely benign,' Rat. You know that the Twitter TRAs would say that was very transphobic of you, because those statements are anti-trans hate speech? The statements themselves, not any intent which may or may not be behind them.

Comparing women who recognise objective, biological differences between the sexes to pre-war anti-semites was a nice touch, though.

only started using the word these last few weeks, I used to avoid it at all costs so as to avoid alienating the people who i would try and understand. But now I think, "what's the point? I'm calling that spade a spade!!"

Eh?

I've been reading your posts for months - I've read your arguments thought through your points seen how you responded to questions.

I am perfectly capable of seeing what's there without a big label being added every time.