Would you consider me transphobic?

[TheSkyisAlive]

First of all I believe that gender dysphoria is a mental illness and should not be treated with hormones and surgery. Having said that, it's their body and their choice and if that's what a person wants, they shouldn't face abuse or live in fear.

But just because you identify as a female does not mean you are one. Even after surgery.

You do not understand what it is like to be a female and the problems we face. You do not get to speak on behalf of women. You should not compete in female only sports.

Does that make me transphobic or simply someone who does not want the females to be second class citizens?

HCP with an 'obviously male appearance' would only have to say "I'm a woman" and anyone requesting a female HCP for whatever reason would not only not have a leg to stand on when it came to protesting their request had not been adhered to (you asked for a woman, we gave you a woman, what's your problem?), but would be at risk of being accused of discrimination for even trying to do so.

Correct.

For what it's worth, if the transwoman presented as a natal female, I would be none the wiser. What we're really talking about here is the impact of self ID and the fact that this can include males who have made no physical effort to transition and still looks like a man... That's the way this is going. As the above quoted post explains...

If you turn up for a smear test and refuse the HCP it's likely that you will lose that appointment and have to rebook.

Apart from anything else, why should be be inconvenienced for the sake of someone else's validation?

I'm not sure about the mental health condition thing. To some extent I think the fault is in society not the individual concerned. They've been subject to indoctrination from a young age that if they want to be the way their personality inclines them to be they "are" a man/woman. Maybe it is actually easier to describe yourself as a woman with a penis than describe yourself as a man when you're wearing a dress and heels. I hate what that says about our society.

I hate what it is saying to the gender nonconforming people who are happy in their own sex too. No, deck off, I do NOT have a secret female gender identity, I'm just a person, with female biology. And I'm not all that GNC, I generally go the route of least required effort when it comes to presentation. Perhaps my gender identity is lazy sod. I might try that next time it comes up on a form. So I see transwomen preening and pouting and I think - just what does that person think they have in common with me? When a woman behaves like that I can see we belong to the same category because we both have the same biology. Take away the common biology and what is the common factor? There's nothing left.

I think whatever you describe a condition as which results in an individual making such dramatic and unhealthy changes to their natural body it is a tragedy for the individual concerned, and I definitely think mental health routes should be explored first. One of the harms that a lot of the narrative around transgender issues is doing (the work of mermaids and the like) is to make people outright reject the possibility of learning to live with their existing body and assume it means the person they're talking to is "transphobic" or "denying their identity". This has even been levelled at the Tavistock clinic themselves, the medical experts. Really harmful atmosphere for vulnerable young people, often with other mental health conditions even if you don't describe gender dysphoria as such.

Comparison to homophobia: Gay couples are not looking for medical treatment to make them look more like straight couples (whatever that would even mean?!), or calling us homophobic if we refuse to refer to them as straight. So I don't think the comparison works.

Long waffle: short answer no OP you are not being transphobic.

Poor old trans men, forgotten again in an OP that speaks only to and about trans women.

Anyway, I personally wouldn't classify it as transphobic as I use that to mean the demonstration of prejudice or unjustifiable discrimination.

Rat Roly Poly is always all over these threads being all.sneering and superior and writing screeds of clever sounding stuff to allegedly "balance" the debate. But whenever I now see someone stating that transwomen are women I can only conclude that they are just not very bright. And to use Rat's own word, tiresome . They don't even believe it themselves as their own qualifiers have previously demonstrate.
If it is not a mental illness or medical issue then surely trans people should be paying to have their own treatment and body modification done privately as it is purely cosmetic? Just like all the women with issues with their breast size have to for example. Women who suffer from the physical pain of over large breasts more often than not have to fund their own reduction surgery. Why should someone like Karen White have all that surgery and dentistry done for free while in prison?!

If it is not a mental illness or medical issue then surely trans people should be paying to have their own treatment and body modification done privately as it is purely cosmetic?

I think it's because being in the 'wrong' body then causes mental trauma and anxiety, so it becomes a mental health issue?
Just a guess.

Terfedoff not everyone has watched Butterfly and thought how dreadful it is what is happening to children!
I've posted a thread on the issue on here today pointing out that some facebook ASD/ ADHD threads are saying as fact that Butterfly is a wonderful programme and encouraging parents of children who prefer to dress as the opposite sex that they are probably trans and to explore hormone blockers. It is just being 'accepted' by wide sections of the population that children should be encouraged to 'become' the opposite sex without considering the massive implications of that.

OP I don't think that you are transphobic but I do think that some of the arguments actually muddy the problem that children are genuinely facing. As far as I am concerned I am much more worried that children (particularly autistic children) are being told they can change sex than whether a man can self ID.

This is an interesting watch - Detransition - My reasons and the risks of transitioning

t.co/4qR5GZ6pVZ

He is very clear that there is no reality underpinning transition. That would be a huge problem you would think especially for people who think in black and white. As I do. I think that's why I really struggle to understand why anyone could think this is anything other than a pretence.

Would it make any difference if we did think you were? Are you asking because you are worried you may be and you are using it as an opportunity to grow and maybe empathise or is it just another excuse to fuel the current transphobia?

It never reads like something a mum or a feminist would write. Or even someone who likes or understands women.

Which is odd really, as my tendency to post a lot isn't just confined to trans threads, so I really am quite verifiably both a woman and a mother. Are you sure it isn't you who doesn't understand women? You know, women like me? I get the impression you don't really like this one

Also, have to say, it's rather made my night that someone called my posts "clever sounding"!

No no transphobic. Very much grounded in reality and logic.

Although the TRAs will say that you are and that you need ‘educating’ to come round to their way of messed up double speak and double think.

I don't believe you are at all transphobic.

I feel pretty much the way you do and I will not accept a slur as a label for having one or two concerns.

Yes, you are totally transphobic hth

So if gender dysphoria is not a mental illness then I take it it's okay to just stop treating it all together? After all, if it's not an illness then there is no need for it to be treated...

We have had trans posters and parents of trans children posting here discussing how difficult it is to access any appropriate mental health support now as it is now seen as transphobic. These are people who feel they need this support but are now unable to get it.

However as so many of you are insisting it's not a mental health issue then I guess it naturally follows that it's acceptable that these vulnerable people's mental health support is being withdrawn.

Yes, I would consider you transphobic.

The memorandum of understanding has tied the medical professions hands when it comes to counselling anyone who presents as trans. This is a complete mistake in my opinion. Left themselves 85% of gender nonconforming children eventually come to terms with their own biological sex and avoid the need to become lifelong medical patients and have life-changing surgeries. However if put on puberty blockers and cross sex hormones 100% go on to transition and live perpetually a life of pretence.

Obviously it is more lucrative to the surgical Medical Profession to have people perpetually dissatisfied with their bodies and seeking to change them cosmetically. The drug industry obviously wants people to be on medication for life rather than living their most natural healthy life without the same.

No. I don’t think you’re transphobic.

@TheSkyisAlive yes. You're transphobic and beating a dead dog to death.

*The woman requested a female NHS nurse to perform the intimate procedure but was dismayed when a staff member with “an obviously male appearance” greeted her.

When the patient pointed out the mistake, the nurse replied: “My gender is not male. I’m a transsexual.”*

This is disgraceful and there is no way that women should accept it. I don’t care what names I’m callled, I frankly don’t care !

Some very odd responses on this thread tbh.

People who are intersex are not a third sex. They are not a weird mixture of both sexes.

People who are intersex are still either male or female. It is a complete misconception that being intersex = ambiguous genitalia.

The vast majority of people with intersex disorders are clearly identifiable as either male or female. Even the tiny tiny number of those born with ambiguous genitalia are still either one or the other. There is no such thing as a third sex.

Your sex is determined at the point of conception. You get an X chromosome from your mother and either an X or Y one from your father which in turn determines your sex. I really have no idea why people keep perpertrating the whole 'all babies start off female' myth because it is not true.

The reason why the focus is on trans women is because they are the ones shouting the loudest and making all the demands.

Also trans women are still biologically male and transmen are still biologically female. A trans man in the male toilet or changing room poses little to no threat to the men there where as a male bodied person in a female space will naturally be more threatening.

You're transphobic and beating a dead dog to death.

Is that a real phrase? Never heard of it and it makes no sense.

Bullshit, TerfedOff.

God it pisses me off when people talk about gender counselling like they have any actual experience or understanding of it outside mumsnet and twitter.

This is so bloody dangerous. My daughter's counsellor at Sandyford is amazing. She has not tried to push anything. Knowing people with trans kids - they have had a similar experience of clinics.

People posting crap like this put people off approaching those professionals most qualified to support their children and see what support they actually need.

www.transgendertrend.com/children-left-unprotected-by-new-memorandum-of-understanding-on-conversion-therapy/

"The UK Council for Psychotherapy has launched anewMemorandum of Understanding on Conversion Therapyto include ‘gender identity,’ leaving therapists, counsellors, GPs and clinical professionals in a position where they may be afraid to do anything but agree with a patient’s self-diagnosis as ‘transgender.’ Anything other than ‘affirmation’ could lay a professional open to the charge of conversion or reparative therapy.

‘Affirmation’ is an untested approach to children with gender dysphoria, a result of demands by political activists rather than an approach developed on the basis of research and evidence."

www.stonewall.org.uk/about-us/media-centre/media-statement/stonewall-welcomes-commitment-end-trans-‘cure’-0

Ruth Hunt, Chief Executive, Stonewallsaid: ‘In the same way the idea that someone could, or should, ‘cure’ me of being a lesbian is deeply offensive, it is powerful to see this official recognition that trans identities are not something that can be ‘cured’ or changed. It’s important to make clear that any attempt to change a person’s gender identity through therapy is unethical. Trans people seeking support need to be accepted for who they are, not subjected to prejudice and harmful practice.

Saying that people with gender dysphoria should work on accepting themselves as their birth sex shouldn't be controversial either and I'm not really sure why it has become so tbh.

I have no idea why it is acceptable to agree with a person who is struggling with this that their body is somehow wrong and need to be fixed with hormones and surgery.

Given that the majority of people with gender dysphoria grow out of it it is far better imo to help them come to terms with their sex. Surgery and hormones should be a very last resort imo.