to think that your female reproductive organs actually matter?

[Pamspeople]

Just read this on a Labour Party Facebook page. Am gobsmacked - the very few issues that pertain to having a vagina womb and ovaries ??? -

I am a woman. I know that I am a woman because I have two X chromosomes, I have breasts, hips, a vagina, ovaries etc. The X chromosome and nothing else is what makes me female. I'm not a woman because I like pick (I don't) or because I wear lipstick (hardly ever) or because I cry easily (which I do). I'm a woman because biology says so. Not gender.

But you were using the biology argument earlier? Has this gone now then?

Er read the article.

**I don’t think categed’s post said anything worth replying to.

I think it was perfectly put but obviously doesn’t fit with your agenda.

RatUnholyRolyPoly

I think I love you...

disclaimer. unless I'm wrong, in which case I don't

I have ovaries and the rest. But I can’t even tell they are there. Wouldn’t know what my cervix was if someone hadn’t told me. Period pain was a hassle but my migraines are far worse. So what?

Why don't we ever hear from trans men, as in women who identify as male? I'm trying to get my head round this but have noticed a complete lack if input from trans men. There must be some???

I identify as a man who identifies as a woman.

So does that make me doubly sparkly, brave and stunning. That means I can identify with trans women and biological women. 😀

I grew up in Lewisham - glad I don’t live there now

I have ovaries and the rest. But I can’t even tell they are there. Wouldn’t know what my cervix was if someone hadn’t told me. Period pain was a hassle but my migraines are far worse. So what?

‘So what?’ is that we live in a world where having this biology means we are expected to be, think, act, feel, and exist in society a certain way. This system of expectations is called ‘gender’. It works as a hierarchy, giving men as a class power over women as a class.

Reproductive biology also limits us in other material ways in a society designed to privilege men and male. bodies over women. You not knowing you had a cervix won’t exempt you from getting treated like a liability by potential employers if they think you’re fertile and therefore a baby-machine about to go off. It won’t reduce your odds of being raped (or being abused by a violent partner, or being expected to do most of the housework and parenting by a less violent but still shit partner). If you grew up as a little girl in societies where little girls suffer genital mutilation, nobody would have asked you first if you knew what your ovaries were.

You can wave the “sex is a complex varied spectrum!” flag all you want, but the world will still go on treating a certain half of humanity like this. If you can’t name biology, if the word ‘woman’ is meaningless, then you aren’t doing a thing to stop this from happening, you’re just making it impossible to name.

I have ovaries and the rest. But I can’t even tell they are there. Wouldn’t know what my cervix was if someone hadn’t told me.

Bullshit. If you've had a cold, hard speculum shoved inside you, you know what a cervix is.

Who cares about speculums. Trans women have it so much harder. I care about all the marginalised in society, not just me and mine.

Sorry but I am viewing the article on my mobile and cannot find any links to peer reviewed articles within or at the end of the article 🤔😣 this of course may be due to the limitations of mobiles.

The article actually, in my opinion, from reading it a few times, supports the idea that gender dysphoria may yet be found to have a genetic link. The idea that male and female hormones may be present in some people in an amount, or in an area in the body that might impact on their sex. It does not however suggest that they yet have any evidence that your chromosomes or other parts of your dna shape your gender. Ultimately the sexes may be more linked than before but for most humans they are still fairly distinct.

But seeing as the op questioned the validity that a transman would understand and be able to represent women with regard to their biological sexual experiences this article does not offer any supportthat this is the case. Those affected by intersex have a different experience to those who identify as their birth sex and to those with gender dysmorphia. Our experiences are different to each other, although similarities and links exist between us all. In most ways we are more alike than we are different. But the purpose of having someone representing women is that they understand and can talk about the issues pertaining to women. Thus it is unfair and dimissive to say that someone who has never and can never experience some of the core issues faced by the majority of women can represent us in a fair and honest way.

Also again, the article does not in anyway support the idea that sex can be linked to how you dress or the way that makes you feel. Therefore it does not support self id but rather supports the case for those who are gender dysmorphic ir intersexed.

Science may in the future be able to identify a link or to say that it separate from sex but we are not there yet.

So sex is very much of today, and tomorrow. As we begin to understand more about genetics and how they impact humans. Sex possibly has a part to play in your migraine as they are often linked to hormones which link to our sex.

I am not closed to any ideas. But to be honest would find that argument more useful to support the removal of gender and an acceptance that no matter your sex you can be whatever you want.

A very interesting article. Very interesting that the initial subject had had three pregnancies before finding out that she had some male chromosomes.
At no point did that woman suspect it until science told her so. She didn’t feel male.

How many trans people are intersex?

I believe the issue is not really that she is trans, but mostly because she seems keen to disregard any female experience she hasn't, and isn't, able to experience.

Realistically, if she would've said she will do her best to listen to women in regards to the issues she hasn't got personal experience, then that would've been completely different in my book. As realistically no one has experienced the entirety of being a woman and sometimes we simply substitute compassion instead of life experiences.

Who cares about speculums is genuinely one of the dopiest remarks I have seen on Mumsnet - from (allegedly, or so I believe) a woman.

I care about speculum, you have reminded me my smear is overdue, which I always put off as I find it distressing as a rape survivor who has had PTSD as a result.

My GP reminded me on the phone it is due.

Last time, I defaulted by over a year.

This post reminds me that I need to book in because I am also a single parent who is financially responsible for DC so staying alive is quite necessary.

Otherwise, following what categed says, in some ways gender is useful as a concept to highlight the ways in which society views masculine and feminine and the implications of it, but it has been used in such varying ways and has different meanings in times and places so I find it difficult to see how it can be so strongly inscribed as to mean something more innate than the social meanings given to masculine or feminine.

In other words, it is perfectly possible for a male born person to present in a feminine way. This should not be in question. But to then stake a claim to being female based on feminine presentation is a logical fallacy.

Even if there is a genetic basis to gender dysphoria, surely it would be to sexual dysphoria - because the discomfort is with one’s sexed body? It used to be called sexual dysphoria and referred to as sexual identity. That made more sense because gender is what people believe about being male and female, what they see as masculine and feminine and beliefs can be changed, or challenged, or transgressed. But your sexed body cannot be, aside from with hormones and surgery which is still about presentation and not reality.

That is a bit confused, sorry 😐

Who cares about speculums. Trans women have it so much harder. I care about all the marginalised in society, not just me and mine

All the marginalised, except biological women it seems, many of whom are rape or abuse survivors and care very much about speculums.
This post is the problem in a nutshell. It's the complete lack of understanding by trans activists of why women's rights are needed.
And trans women do not have it harder. There are no reliable stats showing that. Instead, it's natal women who are killed by their partners at 2 a week, 85000 raped a year.
But that's just the status quo and not nearly as fashionable to fight against.

feminist read this threadreaderapp.com/thread/1006161802823159809.html
Sex is not a spectrum. Some people have genetic mutations that mean their sex develops differently than it should. But that doesn't make sex a spectrum.
In the same way that people with mutations meaning they are born without a leg doesn't mean humans can't be described as bipedal.

Humans are sexually dimorphic animals. You can't change that just because your child feels wrong.

who cares about speculums
I do. Instruments of torture as far as I'm concerned and I notice men don't need regular screening involving horrible implements up their unmentionables

Who cares about speculums. Trans women have it so much harder. I care about all the marginalised in society, not just me and mine.

Oh do bore off dear.

When a trans can relate to horrible period cramps, coming on early and at work, leaking tits because a chair squeaked and sounded like a baby on her first day back at work after leaving a 9 month old baby with a child minder then they can tell me what to think!

My vagina does affect my life.

Sorry if that makes me transphobic, I’ll be sure to tell my trans friends.

The article begins with a story, ironically, of a woman who has demonstrated through several pregnancies that she has a female reproductive system. She is an example of mosaicism. This condition does not make her trans.

The rest of the article is mainly about intersex people. Intersex people are not trans, they have a biological sex and suffer from disorders of sexual development.

Intersex people have repeatedly asked not to be used as a "gotcha" for the TRA movement, they find it deeply upsetting. I would have thought, as the TRA movement places the importance of Hurty Feelings above everything in the universe, that they would have immediately desisted from using people who have repeatedly asked not to be used as a "gotcha." How strange that TRAs don't seem to care about the feelings of intersex people.

Now, if trans identity was indeed scientifically and biologically linked with (say) mosaicism, or an intersex DSD, or an MRI-scan showing a pink/blue brain, the obvious thing would be to carry out the appropriate test for these in order to provide certification of trans identity.

Yet, surprisingly, tests or any other form of "gatekeeping" in favour of Self-IDing by magic incantation because gender identity is to do with your deepest innermost authentic-est feelings that cannot possibly be gainsaid.

So which is it? Biological physical basis (hence testable prior to certification) or metaphysical incantation that is superior to physical reality (hence unquestionable, and deserving of immediate affirmation by the universe)?

You know that some doctors will go tests to check if there is a chromosome issue. And strangely they rarely find find there is any issue with chromosomes.

Someone using a magazine to demonstrate to argue that sex is a spectrum rather is hilarious.

It might be a very respected magazine, but its pretty obvious when someone knows what the study they are referring to means something very different and it's obvious that someone is trying to use a story to align with their world view, even though its got nothing to do with being trans.

It's a bit like some one going, cancer is a spectrum because I have irritable bowels which has certain symptoms.

I had a TRA (young right-on woman) throw the “your narrow definition of biology” arguement at me on Twitter. No you utter f*ckwit it’s SCIENCE!

I wonder how many TRAs who are so adamant that science is wrong about biology are climate change deniers or anti-vaxxers? You can’t pick and choose which bits of science to believe after all.

I pointed out to my counterpart that if you buried a woman and a transwoman alongside each other and got some archeologists to dig them up in a few hundred years, they would identify one as female and one as male based on biological facts. She didn’t like that.