to think that your female reproductive organs actually matter?

[Pamspeople]

Just read this on a Labour Party Facebook page. Am gobsmacked - the very few issues that pertain to having a vagina womb and ovaries ??? -

Please, MNers, don't bother engaging with the poster who calls themselves Feminist4. You won't be able to change their mind. They do not want to be informed. They are purely here to derail the thread.

Glad you're around Feminist4, I haven't read everything on this thread but I'm always glad to see other feminists here throwing their informed opinion into the ring.

Some here seem to think they have the authority on what's best for women, or that their interpretation and analysis of risk and rights is the correct one. Even though frequently that is not borne out by statistics, and disregards the fundamental principles on which a fair and equal society is based.

But you won't change their mind; they have to much back up on here. Too many people willing to pat their backs and crush any semblance of doubt in them should it appear. It's not just that some don't want to be wrong, it's that they would have to acknowledge that if it is possible to have a different opinion whilst still being informed, intelligent AND have the best interests of women at heart, they might have to look at themselves to ask why they see it one way and not the other. For some (not all) that might mean confronting their own subconscious prejudice.

Ffs. Who am I going to vote for? It'll be bloody ukip at this rate. Has everyone lost their mind?

Some here seem to think they have the authority on what's best for women, or that their interpretation and analysis of risk and rights is the correct one. Even though frequently that is not borne out by statistics, and disregards the fundamental principles on which a fair and equal society is based

I don’t believe I could adequately and fairly discuss all the intricacies behind being a transwoman.

How can a transwoman discuss and understand and represent adequately all the issues pertaining to being a biological woman?

Feminist would you happily get changed in front of your daughter?

Would they get changed in front of you?

Would you be happy for their friends to be caring for you in a shower?

Scary men dressing as women - as if my trans daughter bears any resemblance to this.

Oh for the love of money. Are you being deliberately obtuse?
There are two different groups of people being talked about here.

Group 1) trans people who just want to get on with their lives and be happy. I support them and hope they find happiness and don’t suffer abuse. I’m sure most people here agree with me on that.

Group 2) unpleasant men who see the chance to jump on the coat tails of the trans movement to allow them access to female safe spaces.

How can I tell group 1 from group 2?

FFS.

They can bloody well stop referring to us as ciswomen as well. We never asked to be called that, did we?

Feminist4 I am so sorry your trans daughter has felt the need to make these changes to fit this idea of gender, and I can see why conflating your child with Karen White and his ilk is upsetting. It isn't true that they are the same, and none of the women on this board are suggesting it is. That simply doesn't change any of the intelligent, cogent arguments about allowing male bodies into a vulnerable female spaces or destroying women's sport or the horror of the stifling of debate on such a big issue.

Woman’s comfort comes before mens comfort when it comes to sex segregated spaces.
This is only discriminatory if you view men as more important than women.

Maybe there needs to be a much bigger movement to break down gender stereotypes.

In my humble opinion stereotypes have got worse over the last 30 years, girls are force fed pink fluff, boys it's all battles and fighting.
Toys were more neutral in the 70s, 80s and 90s. Now everything is gendered.

Clothing stereotypes were broken down for women during the war years. They have never been broken down for men.

Is that part of the issue? Men who want less gendered stuff are forced into thinking they must be trans?

However my element of sympathy doesn't make it right for them to access womens spaces nor does it make them female.

You are vilifying all trans people and denying them rights because of vicious crimes by a few people. It isn't right. All people need protection from harmful violence, but you overestimate the numbers of 'men dressing up as women' and it is damaging trans people. You are trashing them and their reputations as you lump them together and it's not acceptable. Even if you think you make a distinction, you aren't.

Still not understand are you?

don't

It's a derailer. No point in engaging, as it doesn't move the discussion forward, just get stuck in a groove.

No two groups to differentiate between. No such thing, apparently, as fake transwomen, men who 'dress up as women '

It's a derailer. No point in engaging, as it doesn't move the discussion forward, just get stuck in a groove.

Seems like that's the way doesn't it sadly.

No two groups to differentiate between. No such thing, apparently, as fake transwomen, men who 'dress up as women '

I just genuinely don't understand why this isn't an issue for the trans community, and no one has shed light on it yet except for shouting bigot and transphobe if questions are asked.
Does lead me to wonder why this out and out denial that predatory men could abuse the self ID law, why is that? We know from history that predatory men will use anything they can to deceive a woman into a vulnerable position, and this self ID law is a golden opportunity for that. Why the massive and blanket denial?

How are you moving the discussion forward by using biology ax your single repeated argument?

How are you moving the discussion forward by using biology ax your single repeated argument?

Are you saying that biology does not exist?
Are you saying that biology does not have a significant role in life?
Are you saying that you can change biological sex in humans?

Think about it carefully.

QuentinWinters voyeurism is forefront in my mind, too.

I'm a woman, born female. Have been through a LOT of shit in my life, including being groomed, sexual assault and rape. Periods at 8 and the embarrassment of male teachers knowing I couldn't go swimming once a month, yet they'd still come into the female changing room to try to physically force me into the pool after my period had arrived on the bus on the way there.

I am very guarded around men. I have reason to not trust many of them. I want my safe, female-only spaces to remain my safe, female-only spaces. I don't give a shit about hurting the feelings of males who still have a penis who want to invade those spaces. If you want to come into them, leave your cock outside. I am not transphobic, I am male phobic.

My female body has betrayed me with painful, heavy debilitating periods and endometriosis. I've had seven miscarriages, but also the joy of bringing my daughter into the world.

I was not allowed to take the subjects in school I wanted as they were only for boys.

I was never been taken seriously in my chosen career as it was almost exclusively male.

I've recently seen a gynae about the problems I'm now having with the menopause. I waited a year for an appointment with a professional person who told me with contempt that older women wanting HRT as a solution to menopause are just wanting it in order to feel better about themselves and to attract younger men.

My GP is looking into my complaint - it seems I am now being taken seriously as two other women in my surgery have similar complaints. I was not even believed when I first made the complaint.

A male-born person would have no inkling of how hard it's been for me as a woman.

The shit just never ends for many women.

My daughter is a grown woman now but I was (and still am) very protective of her. I would not want her to be subjected to any of the crap forced on me by a lot of men.

Why does Feminist4 insist on being so protective of her child's rights and feelings but isn't willing for the rest of us to feel the same way for our daughters?

Biology is what makes someone female or male.
Gender is a load of rubbish.

The effect of censorship of this level of ridiculousness is to get people's backs up, and fuel resentment and hostility. It forces a position where reasonable voices are drowned out.

The town nearest to where I live has a "diversity" group, with a FB page. People raising concerns about self ID on there have been banned, while those raging at them and calling them TERFs are still active on it. Which makes it not very diverse, imo.

There is something very surreal about people who want to be accepted and treated as women behaving like macho, big-balls bullies, shouting down and excluding those who were defined as female at birth.

Is that part of the issue? Men who want less gendered stuff are forced into thinking they must be trans?

Have they learned nothing from Grayson Perry?

You mean boys, I think.

Ha, apparently trans women are turning up for smear tests now and the nurses are expected to their fragile female egos.

Of course trans women aren’t turning up for smear tests. The only smear is the one you are trying to do to their reputations.

As for the biology argument, it’s so last year ...

As for the biology argument, it’s so last year ...

No love. Biology is a reality for everyone. To attempt to deny otherwise demonstrates extreme ignorance.

AvoidingDM I think less gendered everything could only be a good thing- whilst I have my concerns about parts of the trans movement, I couldn't give a toss if a someone biologically male wanted to wear makeup and a dress.

What's ironic is that transwomen don't want to use male spaces because they feel they're at risk (I agree they are), but completely disregard natal women feel the same way about self ID. Even worse is that both transwomen and women will be left completely without any safe spaces from men because they will demand access to them...

I also firmly believe that the current incredibly aggressive trans movement is detrimental to trans people in general, prior to this the debate centred around being able to transition without the glitzy, ultra feminine look that actually a lot of natal women reject. Right now they're treated like they're not trying hard enough.