to expect DM, 70, to sort out her affairs

[10yellowbuckets]

Should possibly have put in elderly relatives, but posting here for traffic.

Usually have an excellent relationship with DM. Over the last 2 years or so its become increasingly strained as she refuses to sort out her affairs. She is an extremely fit, active and usually very sensible 70 yo with no health issues. Every time I suggest that she sorts out a PoA, her Will or her large 4 bedroomed house full of shit house full of very important stuff she responds with either ' 'I'm not planning to die any time soon' (which is ironic seeing as her DH died at 50) or 'its like you want me dead'. We've now had several huge arguments over this.

She knows her not-fit-for-purpose 25 year old will is going to cause a family shit storm, but won't change it (she says she won't be around to see the arguments) and she also knows that its going to take me (because DBs won't help) years to sort her house out which has stuff crammed in every cupboard, wardrobe, drawer and flat surface that you can pile anything.

Very occasionally she accepts help to clear out a cupboard, but next time we visit it will be full of something else.

I have a friend IRL who has a very similar problem, with no solutions. Does anyone have any suggestions or do I just have to accept that when she dies be that in 2 years or 30 that things will be horrible because she didn't want to sort it out when she was alive. AIBcompletelyU to keep bringing this up in the hope that my nagging will get her to do something?

Ok if your willing to do the poa with your siblings then tell her. As for the state of her property i wouldnt push it as youll need to pick your battles.

PoA, organising wills, discussing organ donation, your wishes if you are ever seriously ill/incapacitated are things you should absolutely discuss with your family/next of kin.
I have spoken about this with my parents (who are still in their 60's) and DH (we're in our 30's).
Death is certain but I would hate to leave my family with so many difficult discussions and choices because I couldn't face talking about it when I was healthy.

Up to a point YANBU,and POA is sensible to do.
But in between losing Mum and losing Dad ( at 79,3 years after Mum) he would regularly say to me that he was worried about leaving stuff for me to sort,tell me where stuff was etc etc.I was executor with the solicitor,my DSis lives in the US so he didn't feel she could do that.
And I said to him it was fine,I would cope.I didn't want him worrying about what would happen when he did die,I didn't want him to worry about burdening me with it.Dealing with that stuff was something I could do for him ( well,being inhibited and British I only said it'd be fine,I'd cope - the rest I just thought ).
It was hard work,and tiring,and time consuming,but it was ok,it got done.
But he was completely capable of managing his own affairs so that I didn't have to deal with.

You should have everything in place. My mum developed sudden early onset dementia age 65.
I am 34 and have a couple of pieces of paper with stuff written down - not much but if I died, my dad wouldn't have a clue who insured my car, who my bank account was with, what all my direct debits etc were for, who my friends were...
I just wrote it down, a big list of all the financial stuff. To make it easier if anything did happen

@Alpacanorange
Such a depressing thread, yes of course your parents should sort themselves out and be organised for your convenience. Ffs don’t be so tactless.

Actually in my experience it's as much about their wishes as the family's. Without a poa in place their medical wishes may not be followed. Without a will in place things may not go where they would have liked. And with grief, family strife from wills, plus a house full of stuff, they will be leaving their grieving children with a huge burden, which they likely don't want - and also their children will likely have to end up throwing away the bulk of their possessions without being able to sort, which is also what they probably don't want. It's not all selfish.

I’m an experienced adult social worker who has worked with a variety of people from those with learning disabilities to those who have dementia. There is some very poor advice on this thread. That said, you don’t have to take me at face value. I could be anyone but please, please research and ignore some of the ignorant points raised.

Power of Attorney is a choice. I think it’s a very wise choice and know few social care workers who don’t have this in place. Would you want a social worker who’s met you a handful of times making decisions about your care home? Obviously, I try to be a decent human being, as well as a professional but ultimately, it’s not the same as having someone you have chosen to make decisions. I would strongly urge everyone to have POA in place but first, do your research.

Applying to be a deputy through the Court of Protection is a long and labourious process. It’s more expensive than POA and the COP and inundated with applications. You are looking at around 13 months to be appointed as a deputy.

Abuse of POA does take place. The Office of the Public Guardian are response to concerns raised and do thorough investigations. Safeguarding workers also take this very seriously, as do the police.

Sadly, I see daily financial abuse of adults. To be honest, it’s 50-50 with regards to those who have POA and those who do not. Family members who want to steal will find ways. POA does not mean you are more or less likely to be financially abused. We - social workers and the police - take it very seriously either way.

I cannot imagine leaving my loved ones to deal with the aftermath of my life if I suddenly or rapidly lose capacity e.g. brain injury. I see it happen all the time. It’s messy and stressful, possibly as the worst point in your family’s life. Nobody is immune to life and the curveballs it throws at us.

Whatever you do, please make sure you look at reputable websites and don’t be swayed by the uninformed online. Talk to your family about your wishes. Even if you don’t have POA, if you were to lose capacity, at least people know what you would have wanted.

The level of ignorance on this thread is utterly terrifying.

Everyone who has kids/assets/possessions should have a will. No one wants to confront their mortality and it’s a difficult day, but not doing it is utterly selfish. And frankly not having a PoA is utter foolishness.

A Will is your opportunity to make your family’s life easier after you die, to choose what happens to your belongings, to choose who looks after your children (to a degree).

A PoA allows you to choose who will make decisions for you if you become unable to do so. To keep your affairs in order while you recover, or to choose your place of care if you’re not going to get better.

I’ve had a will since my 20s, updated whenever required. Added a PoA in my early 40s as soon as I realised what it was all about. It’s the responsible thing to do.

Suggesting that a Will isn’t needed by a 70 year old because she’s not ill is just a ridiculous level of stupidity.

You can’t force her to do anything.

I work in probate and it can be an absolute nightmare dealing with stuff left behind by the deceased. I once had to count over £2,000 in 2ps that had been stashed in one one person’s home.

Enjoy your fit and healthy mum whilst she’s here. Stop nagging her.

My fit and healthy 60yo dad and 55yo step mum have sorted out me and my siblings as POA for when the time comes.

It's hard if she isn't willing but it's not a case of "sort it when I'm dead" because if she becomes incapable of looking after herself then someone needs to be in charge of her health and monetary decisions as well as vouching for her. It's a sensible thing for anyone over middle age to think about as unfortunately without you can be left in precarious situations if POA isn't given to someone who cares about your welfare and beliefs first and foremost.

Leave your mum for now, but perhaps gently breach the subject in a few months heavily leaning on helping her in case she needs help during her life. No one can take control of anything unless she's found unable to make sound decisions, and that can be temporarily or long term.

@justwantcheesee
Nanny0gg there is absolutely a good reason not to have one - if you have capacity...

And then you don't.

Sadly, I see daily financial abuse of adults. To be honest, it’s 50-50 with regards to those who have POA and those who do not. Family members who want to steal will find ways.

Very interesting. It confirms my concerns.

While the process of applying to be a deputy through the CoP is labourious, it gives better transparency and scrutiny from the start as deputies have to provide a full list of assets, annual accounts and a security bond.

My dad (dementia) has spent most of the last 3 years being robbed blind by my "d" b. Because we have POA we (now dad has lost enough capacity) have a chance of stopping this. Dad would be bankrupt before we could get through the Court of Protection. And the police will do jack shit if your relative empties his bank account and gives the money to someone then doesnt remember he's done it. Even if this happens once a week.

Tatiana do you have experience of COP applications? The interim months in waiting for the deputy to be appointed is very problematic. It can lead to the individual being in a very unhappy and in an unsatisfactory position without their needs being met. I wouldn’t ever recommend this as an option. It is a safety net but nothing I would ever choose for myself or my loved ones. As I said, financial abuse can happen regardless of how many assets the abuser has or what their intentions may be.

I hope, if nothing else, this thread has made some people realise that POAs are important and should be discussed and put in place well before any health concerns become apparent.

Instead of the idea that you are trying to access your inheritance before your relative is even dead, I would assume the majority of POAs are used to help with the financial paperwork etc for carehomes and are therefore reducing your inheritance.

I considered it Tenerife and took legal advice. I decided it was too much palaver, plus it doesn’t cover health and welfare. (Personal welfare deputyships exist but they’re not common).

I know I’m not going to financially abuse my aunt, and as she’s wealthy she has a private banker and an accountant to look out for her too as well as her solicitor which many people don’t have.

But, from a financial POV if you can stomach the process it may be safer.

The security bond financially protects the person if the deputy were to mismanage their finances. The annual report means you have to give information on what decisions you’ve made on their behalf over that year including accounts, transactions, bank statements etc.

I don’t disagree that people who want to steal or manipulate will find a way. But the fact is I have the opportunity to abuse my aunt in ways I did not have without PoA.

Sorry not been able to read all the threads on this post OP. I do feel for you, we had the same issue. Very fit and seemingly healthy parents who enjoyed hillwalking, watersports and many holidays each year - refused to accept any later life planning of ANY kind. It's as though they think doing so will hasten death. Cut a long story short, one parent is now diagnosed with advanced brain tumour and has lost most mental capacity within around 3 weeks. Most of the savings are in the sick parents name. No-one PLANS on dying anytime too soon, no-one plans on getting terminally ill. Shit happens. We may not be able to access the sick parents money to pay bills or for any care anytime too soon.
We find ourselves with DH having to take lengthy periods off work, kids doing exams soon. Just a little bit of paperwork planning on their part during non distressed times would have reall really helped matters. Hey ho. Just do what we can. Maybe find a good trusted solicitor for her with an initial no fee consultation a step an easy first step?

Tinkobell I am so sorry you are going through that. We were in a similar position.

If people are worried about how their parents may take offence if you suggest getting a POA in place, it might be an idea to do them wholesale, if you like, and get yours done at the same time (as it is a good idea for all adults to have them in place) and sell it that you are getting your paperwork in order too. If they are defensive you can say that you can register it on the basis that you won't have access to it until they lose mental capacity, rather than having immediate effect.

I think this has been a useful thread - while we were very concerned that MIL had an up to date PoA in place, it never occurred to us, both in our sixties, that we ought to make them for ourselves!

This thread has been a real eye opener - I can't believe how irresponsible some people are. To be an adult without a will or incapacity planning in place for your family is selfish, cruel and plain stupid. It has nothing to do with trying to grab a bit of inheritance!

My mother has always been the 'bury your head in the sand' type when it comes to dealing with this sort of thing. Then, last year at age 74 (only three years older than her), her brother died. For various reasons I was the person who had to deal with everything surrounding it. Everything. Not because I was in the will - I wasn't and knew it and never had any thought of being so, it was nothing to do with that. He was a very organised person but it was still a complete shitstorm that disrupted my life hugely for quite a long time.

Having seen what I went through she and her sister both realised what would be involved when they went and determined to sort themselves out with up to date wills, funeral planning, PoA etc. because they didn't want to put any of their loved ones through it. 18 months later nothing has been done...

And those who think because they feel well now, at any age, they don't need any PoA or incapacity planning are, quite frankly, deluded and are spectacularly missing the point. Can any of you guarantee me, absolutely 100% assure me that when I go out this afternoon I will not get hit by a car and suffer a brain injury? Do accidents not happen? Ever? If you really thought that presumably none of you have any insurance (car, life, home) of any kind because it wouldn't be necessary. I think my husband and family would have enough to deal with it at that point without struggling to handle bills, insurances, care decisions etc.

If you care at all about the people you leave behind you will do this for them.

For those who think POAs only relate to old people with dementia, replace the scenario we were in with my DF losing mental capacity suddenly, with the potential of bank freezing his bank account, so rent for the property where he and DM lived not being paid and not being able to set up payments for care home fees, to situation of man in his 30s being knocked down whilst crossing the road and sustaining a brain injury.

Again, if he has lost mental capacity bank has the obligation to freeze the bank account. Maybe this man has a SAHM partner with children. How many times do we read on here about not having joint accounts (although banks can also freeze joint accounts)So main bank account which man's wages go in, all bills paid out of. Worst case scenario, that bank account completely frozen, bills not being paid. Partner has no right of access to that bank, no right of access to income/sick pay. Could be other way round (so not being sexist). If couple have POA in place, partner can access bank and sort things out

My Nan died in her mid 90's (very healthy, totally had her wits about her, still running her own company, had only recently given up driving - she had a mild cataract removed and her eye got infected. Went in for treatment, ended up with c-dif and died a few months later 😥) ... and she still didn't have her stuff in order even at her age! Live and let live OP. Just deal with it when it happens.

COP is an expensive nightmare.

It takes months to apply and get it.

How can people say live and let live and deal with it when it happens, after reading about other people's experiences of having to deal with not having a POA?

It takes months to apply and get it

This has been covered.

But it gives much more protection from financial abuse because the deputy has to account for all finances to a court, and to provide insurance against mismanagement.

ineedaholidaynow I think it’s indicative of people’s attitude towards death in this country, and most of the Western World for that matter. Like someone upthread said, it’s as if some people think talking about this sort of thing/taking aby action will hasten death!

I vividly remember my best friend telling me about the planning her mother did before she died. She was diagnosed with terminal cancer in her late 50s and given a year to live. She organised everything: sold off her business, sorted the house, made care plans for her disabled husband and left a file full of her funeral requests (music, where she wanted the service, the fact she wanted to be cremated, where her ashes should be scattered, etc). Even with all that pre-planning my friend and her sister found it all (obviously) very traumatic and difficult but said things would have been 1000 times harder had their mum not done so much before she died.

After that I told my own parents I wanted them to write down any specific requests for funeral arrangements on a piece of paper, put it in an envelope and leave it somewhere me or my brother can easily find it when the time comes.