to expect DM, 70, to sort out her affairs

[10yellowbuckets]

Should possibly have put in elderly relatives, but posting here for traffic.

Usually have an excellent relationship with DM. Over the last 2 years or so its become increasingly strained as she refuses to sort out her affairs. She is an extremely fit, active and usually very sensible 70 yo with no health issues. Every time I suggest that she sorts out a PoA, her Will or her large 4 bedroomed house full of shit house full of very important stuff she responds with either ' 'I'm not planning to die any time soon' (which is ironic seeing as her DH died at 50) or 'its like you want me dead'. We've now had several huge arguments over this.

She knows her not-fit-for-purpose 25 year old will is going to cause a family shit storm, but won't change it (she says she won't be around to see the arguments) and she also knows that its going to take me (because DBs won't help) years to sort her house out which has stuff crammed in every cupboard, wardrobe, drawer and flat surface that you can pile anything.

Very occasionally she accepts help to clear out a cupboard, but next time we visit it will be full of something else.

I have a friend IRL who has a very similar problem, with no solutions. Does anyone have any suggestions or do I just have to accept that when she dies be that in 2 years or 30 that things will be horrible because she didn't want to sort it out when she was alive. AIBcompletelyU to keep bringing this up in the hope that my nagging will get her to do something?

I have come to the conclusion that with elderly and increasingly frail relatives, there is no good or easy solution. You do your best and provide the least worst option for them.

A POA is for the living not the dead. Once someone dies the POA is no longer valid and if a will is in place it is the executor(s) who now deals with the estate. If no will it is whoever is appointed as an administrator

For all those on this thread thinking 70 is too early, and POA and wills are more of a thing to do in your 80s and 90s -

The average age of death in the UK is just over 80.

So most of you would completely miss the boat and have left it far too late.

You should also consider how many people are frail, confused or suffering from dementia for possibly years before they actually die so all those years are years they can't do a POA/will.

On a personal level, my Dad was an incredibly healthy 72 yr old with no illnesses. At 74 he died of cancer.

My FIL we just managed to get to sign a will and POA probably a month or two before he lost capacity to do so from dementia having refused to do so for years. If you leave it too long, the opportunity goes.

In a work capacity, as a doctor, I probably see a family every week running about trying to get POA or a will at end of life for a confused patient and I have to tell them it is all far far too late.

I'm sorry but what gives you the right to push her into this just because you are her daughter?
If she has capacity to make a choice then leave her alone she is an adult.
I think it's awful that you are spending her last years alive thinking of yourself and how you will deal with her death before she is even gone.
She has made a will. Respect it and let her live her life in peace. You don't own her.

Also not sure why you are pushing poa. It sounds like you are just being grabby or controlling and trying to get your hands on her bank.
I have worked in healthcare a long time and work in a very large gp surgery with over 11000 patients. I think maybe 30 of them max have poa in place and they are people with learning disabilities or late stage dementia ect that have absolutely no capacity.
It's not something she needs at all. She is perfectly capable of sorting her own affairs and it's not something that you need to be pushing an elderly lady into.

After having just gone through being an executor for a relative, anyone who sticks their head in the sand is being massively selfish. There is such a lot of work to do even if someone is organised with fianances, has power of attorney and a will. I’m overwhelmed with the admin, house clearance etc. And. We had a lot sorted in advance. I will not be leaving my children a shitstorm to sort out. My family is quite open about planning for death though. My grandmother had her funeral planned down to which caterers and what buffet she would like. It helped enormously.

OP, ignore the people who are telling you 70 is too young. The point is, people need to do these things well before they need them, while they are still healthy and their minds are sharp. My DM died this summer and even with PoA, a will and a relatively tidy house, it took two of us about a week to clear it and sort it out. We were exhausted. The only thing I can suggest is that you say 1. you want her to decide about things while she can and 2. you want her to tell you what she wants to happen if she gets dementia or has an illness that incapacitates her, so that you don't have to take decisions for her.

Also I have power of attorney set up for both of my parents and they have been clear about their wishes. The papers are lodged with our family solicitor and when I need to invoke powers I will contact him. I hope I will not need them for a long time to come but it will be a relief that should I need to suddenly, they made preparations when they were well and of sound mind.

And yes, I know that PoA ceases as soon as someone is dead, but if your relative is ill before dying, and most people are, you need it then.

Difficult. My mum is 69 & is just about to sort out her Health & Finance POA.
She was going to leave it as she still works & is very youthful but now it seems she needs an operation & she is worried what may happen if she's stuck in hospital with no way of paying her direct debits for example.

My dad is 71 & has already sorted this out as he had Prostate cancer & it scared him.

My nan never changed her out of date Will though & by the time she wanted to change it she had developed dementia & had been sectioned so was deemed not to have capacity.
She died before we would have had to go to the court of protection to sort out her future.

Actually my family are on at me to make a Will as I have poorly controlled epilepsy.

I'm only 42 but I'm also thinking of doing the POA thing as my health is not good.

Tell your mum that if god forbid she had a stroke & ended up in hospital with no Health POA sorted out then she could be stuck for months in hospital or the cheapest nursing home while you have to go to Court of Protection.

I assume your Aunt said that this was OK. I think people are running away with the idea that you sign PoA your Attorney starts meddling in your affairs even if you don't want them to.

My aunt had mental capacity assessment and we discussed all her preferences before she signed. But meddling is potentially possible. There’s a lack of safeguards in the system. And the risk of exploitation can never be completely eliminated.

justwantcheesee

Working in healthcare gives you no knowledge of the legal system.

Your post is absolute nonsense. Everyone should have one if they have family they care about.
There is no good reason *not^ to have them.

I'm not sure what people think a power of attorney is. It usually only applies if a person loses mental capacity, temporarily or permanently. So putting one in place doesn't mean you give anyone access to anything. However, the financial one can mean that if you still have capacity but want your attorney to do some legwork, they have authority to sign stuff for you.

If you don't have capacity and nobody has a health PoA for you, it is your dictor who makes decisions in your best interests, not your family (though obviously any dictor will talk to the family to find out your wishes, if you ever talked about them).

I hold a finance PoA for my mother. She has capacity to make all her own decisions. I don't use it.

to answer a few questions;

I'm not sure who the executor of her very old will is. Its not me or my siblings.

I'd be happy to do joint POA with both siblings for medical and finance. I am medical, and I'm pretty sure even my PITA DB would agree to me making most if not all of the medical decisions. As for the finance one I presumed again we'd do a joint one with all 3 of us. As I've already said several times I'm not going to fight over money, so in terms of controlling the money if I refused to look after my mum at home, then all her care fees would come from her estate (which I'm pretty sure I'm not getting any of anyway), so it would be DBs who would be loosing out. Although he is a PITA I don't think he'd be wanting to scrimp on quality in terms of care homes.

For those of you unclear about PoA. It only comes into affect once you have lost capacity (see The Mental Capacity Act), and can be revoked if you regain capacity. So relative A with dementia looses capacity. PoA can take over financial and medical dealings, including selling house etc to release funds for care homes. A different relative, B, aged 40 gets hit by a car and spends 6 months in ITU in a coma. Their financial PoA can manage all their finances while they are in hospital and incapacitated (make sure their mortgage gets paid/organise a mortgage holiday, pay bills, stop their gym membership etc), as soon as they recover and regain capacity the PoA ceases to act and relative B takes over all the jobs again.

@Nanny0gg there is absolutely a good reason not to have one - if you have capacity and you decide you don't want one. That's enough. It's not ops decision right now.

POAs aren't for the old and decrepit. They should be put in place while you're fit and healthy and don't need it. The big issue comes when you do actually need a POA and you no longer have the capacity to grant one.
You aren't giving up control while you have a POA until you can no longer decide for yourself. Everyone should have them. Think of it like an insurance policy.
My DM partner was recently diagnosed with early onset Alzheimer's and vascular dementia. He's not yet 60.
I am grateful that they have POAs in place to make it all easier for them.
And there is nothing that changes a family dynamic quite like an estate to fight over. Update your Wills.

Just be straight with her. No POA means youll just leave her (or ss) to it, if she runs into problems later on they will be her problems not yours. Tell her you won't be an executor to her will. And mean it.

It only comes into affect once you have lost capacity (see The Mental Capacity Act), and can be revoked if you regain capacity. So relative A with dementia looses capacity

As I have pointed out it’s not that simple. As a medic you will know you don’t automatically lose capacity on dementia diagnosis, that would be subject to assessment if it came to it.

A person can have degrees of incapacitation for some time before before they are deemed to have lost mental capacity. And mental capacity decisions can be challenged.

A retired court of protection judge recently said he wouldn’t personally sign a PoA despite or rather because of having adjudicated over 6000 odd PoA cases himself.

He warned of lack of safeguards that I have personally experienced myself. He also claimed that it can have a devastating impact on family relationships, and lack of transparency can cause suspicion.

I think a priority is setting up Power of Attorney. My DM had been reluctant to do that for years, but an unexpected spell in hospital a few months ago made her realise how fragile life is, and how your situation can change rapidly. If no one else has access to money it can be extremely problematic.

As for your DM’s stuff, I really wouldn’t mention it again. It’s her stuff, and what makes her house feel like her home. She might have a clear-out at some point if she starts to feel that it would be easier to clean her house if she had fewer things in it, or she might not. Her call entirely.

Financially with DM we found an alternative - we were able to have our names added to her bank account, so it meant that we could draw money on her behalf. Yes, there does have to be a measure of trust.

I think a POA is a sensible choice for anyone, regardless of age.
My dad died with Alzheimer’s 7 years ago and after that, my mum arranged a PoA for herself, as she knew how difficult it had been for her to make decisions for my dad, even though they were spouses.

Now, 7 years later, my mum has been diagnosed with Alzheimer’s herself and because we have the PoA, it means I can speak to her bank/utility company/ bt etc on her behalf. This takes huge pressure off of my mum as she now finds dealing with paperwork and bills very stressful. It’s not about wanting control of her money at all (she does all that herself), it’s about supporting her to do the stuff that’s too difficult now.

@justwantcheesee - speaking from experience, it's not selfish to want your parents to sort out POA, it's self-preservation. My mum is 90, she's been declining mentally for years. If we hadn't pushed her to get a POA last year, she would find it nearly impossible to access her bank and pay bills etc now. As it is, me and DB sort out everything for her. Literally everything. She's deaf so can't do telephone banking. Can't do online banking as missed that boat. Last time I tried to deal with the bank (to order a chequebook) they closed her telephone banking down (in case I was acting fraudulently - fair enough). She can't get to a branch easily at all, as there are no branches.
Luckily, as we have POA, we have 'activated' it, and can now do her banking stuff for her. She still gets the bank statements etc. This thread is depressing. I don't want to be doing everything for my mum quite frankly, but no one else will. I don't think it's too much to ask not to put obstacles in your children's way.

I assume if there are family issues and potential for one person on POA to deal with financial issues incorrectly you could have a solicitor/trusted friend etc on the POA and you have to act jointly not severally.

DH is an accountant, and has been asked to be on a couple of his clients' finance POAs.

Also my understanding is that you can be asked to provide accounts to show the Office of Public Guardian, to show that you have been treating funds correctly.

I've known several people who've had to go to the court of protection because an elderly parent had lost capacity but hadn't done a POA. They all said it was hellish. I wouldn't want to end up in that position.

OP, I'd agree with the posters saying step back from it all. Tell your mother you won't be sorting anything out and without an up to date will you'll just leave it to your brother(s?) to deal with. When she says you'll get her jewellery, say 'I doubt it, it's not in your will and SIL will take it, but that's your call'. Stop asking her to do anything but make it clear what the consequences of her inaction will be.

Think the court of protection thing can take up to 6 months to deal with, whereas a POA can take 6 weeks to register.

It is a hard thing to bring up with parents but a really good idea.