to expect DM, 70, to sort out her affairs

[10yellowbuckets]

Should possibly have put in elderly relatives, but posting here for traffic.

Usually have an excellent relationship with DM. Over the last 2 years or so its become increasingly strained as she refuses to sort out her affairs. She is an extremely fit, active and usually very sensible 70 yo with no health issues. Every time I suggest that she sorts out a PoA, her Will or her large 4 bedroomed house full of shit house full of very important stuff she responds with either ' 'I'm not planning to die any time soon' (which is ironic seeing as her DH died at 50) or 'its like you want me dead'. We've now had several huge arguments over this.

She knows her not-fit-for-purpose 25 year old will is going to cause a family shit storm, but won't change it (she says she won't be around to see the arguments) and she also knows that its going to take me (because DBs won't help) years to sort her house out which has stuff crammed in every cupboard, wardrobe, drawer and flat surface that you can pile anything.

Very occasionally she accepts help to clear out a cupboard, but next time we visit it will be full of something else.

I have a friend IRL who has a very similar problem, with no solutions. Does anyone have any suggestions or do I just have to accept that when she dies be that in 2 years or 30 that things will be horrible because she didn't want to sort it out when she was alive. AIBcompletelyU to keep bringing this up in the hope that my nagging will get her to do something?

There are so many deluded people on this thread.

The mother may not be old, but it’s not just about age. My BIL has a devastating stroke at 50 and was in hospital for 6 months. His wife had an awful time as all finances were separate and she couldn’t access any of his accounts. It took months to get POA. You don’t want to be dealing with this crap when your loved one is lying in hospital at deaths door.

OP I think you should tell your mum how hurt you are about how she’s behaving towards you. She’s saying your not going to get anything anyway so you’ve got nothing to lose! Just calmly and gently tell her you’re very worried about what may happen if she got ill.

Tatiana, you don’t hand over anything at the time you draw up the POA. You say who you want to be your POA (and you do different ones for health decisions and financial decisions), and then nothing at all happens until you lose capacity. Once you have lost capacity, the POA comes into effect and your nominated person takes over your affairs until you regain capacity (or not, as the case may be).

The alternative is to wait until you have lost capacity, then your family can go to court and apply to take over your affairs. But that is not a quick process, and in the meantime bills are not being paid. If you have a stroke you could find you’ve lost your house by the time you’re discharged.

Medical decisions are less of an issue because in the absence of a POA medics will just treat you in your best interests if you don’t have capacity to make your own decisions - it’s often a relief for family to know that the responsibility isn’t theirs to carry.

I am not a lawyer, but my understanding is that a lasting power of attorney can be granted to a person to take effect immediately for finance and property if the person taking it out gives their permission. One for welfare only takes effect when the person becomes legally incapacitated. MiL is not incapacitated and hasn't granted permission for the money and property one so neither are in effect. www.gov.uk/power-of-attorney

Many people don't seem to understand POAs.

My parents kept putting off having them. My DF went from having slight memory loss to complete lack of mental capacity in the space of 2 weeks. Once a bank is aware that you have lost mental capacity they can freeze the bank account (including joint ones). DF was going to go into a home but we couldn't access his bank account etc to fund it. It just added more stress to an already stressful time. Sadly he died before he could go into a home.

My DM signed POA for herself straight after that.

You do not need a solicitor to set them up. They do cost, but if you are on limited income you can get some of the fees reimbursed.

There are 2 types of POA health and financial. You can register them as soon as you set them up, but health doesn't kick in until you lose mental capacity but financial can be used straight away if the donor wishes. But this does not mean you run their affairs, it just means if they need help, even if it is something simple, like they are on holiday and they lose their cards you can deal with their bank on their behalf.

Sorry if someone has posted this already

This book is supposed to be great, heard the author talking about it on the radio and that was also very comforting and beautiful. Really lovely.

www.amazon.com/Gentle-Art-Swedish-Death-Cleaning/dp/1501173243

Maybe she could read this but maybe the phrase Death Cleaning might put her off.

FFS who “Plans On” dying or being incapacitated?!

I’m not meaning to upset people but the idea that because you are 70 you don’t need to worry about it - I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.

I have sorted out the wills affairs and houses of relatives too many times and none of them were 70.

52, 66, 58, 61 are the most recent deaths in my extended family - there are two in their 90s still going.

We lost lovely MIL almost a year ago, she was only just turned 70 the month before. She declined very quickly over 6 months and that was it. Luckily her estate was very simple and everything was in order. However it's still taken almost a year for probate to happen. I would emphasise to her how selfish she is not to at least update to make things easier on you. And if she still refuses say fine, but you won't agree to sort anything out for her when she's gone.

That's what we were told by a Dr, whatever you have said.

If he told you that it’s not true. As long as a dementia sufferer has not lost their mental capacity - eg with advanced Alzheimer’s - they can still sign legal documents.

In my experience someone having a clear and precise will does not mean that a shit storm will not ensue, or that there won't be plenty of admin and things to sort out post death sadly

That's perfectly true, but all the same it seems a shame for folk to make it worse if i can be avoided

And why do some seem to feel a POA means someone else immediately swooping in and taking over, when actually nothing has to be done until it's really needed?

There's an excellent site here which explains it all: www.lawdepot.co.uk/law-library/faq/power-of-attorney-faq-united-kingdom-england/#.W89sL2hKjIU

@Charley50 I think I meant there are some that only kick in once declared no longer having capacity (this is what my mum had drawn up), and some where the person still has capacity but also gives POA to named person/s over their affairs. So MIL's mum is quite capable of doing banking and still does pay bills etc but MIL and FIL also have POA.

70 is not elderly!

My mum had given me her will in advance. I agree that it can still be difficult, but it would have been far worse going into it without a clue as to what she had arranged.

But the giving permission is important for a finance/property one. I assume your aunt has given her permission Tatiana. MiL hasn't - it's been written so that it takes effect if she becomes incapacitated.She had one before naming a sister and a friend. The sister died and the friend became incapacitated herself, so that one was replaced. The sister and friend never touched MiLs affairs.

You say who you want to be your POA (and you do different ones for health decisions and financial decisions), and then nothing at all happens until you lose capacity. Once you have lost capacity, the POA comes into effect and your nominated person takes over your affairs until you regain capacity (or not, as the case may be).

Not exactly true. My aunt is not deemed to have lost mental capacity yet, but I still sign her care home respite care documents.

I’m not making decisions about her health yet because she still has mental capacity.

I’m sorting out her financials and making financial decisions on her behalf because that’s something you can nominate to start straight away.

Peregrina that’s right, the financial one can be either activated straight away or used once you lose capacity, it’s up to you.

The health one can only be activated once you lose capacity, in UK law medical decisions are always made by the patient, or by the medical team in the patient’s best interests. The idea of other people making decisions for capacitous adults would be unethical in the UK.

That’s in contrast to Canada and the US, where families are legally responsible for medical decisions once the patient loses capacity, and so they are involved much more in making decisions from the start (it’s quite normal over here for families to overturn patients’ CPR decisions, dialysis decisions etc).

I can not believe people in the 70s and 80s, or even 50s or 60s, don’t think it’s necessary to sort this stuff out. Maybe I’m biased because my incredibly fit, energetic and vibrant mum died very suddenly at the age of 70. I am so very very grateful that she had sorted her shit out. It made the very difficult decision to take her off life support a bit clearer, which was the nicest thing she could have done for us. She had also done a great deal of estate planning, which made it so much easier for us to effectuate her wishes. My DH and I have had our wills, POAs/advance directives, and other estate docs done since we had our first DC. Anyone who doesn’t do that is choosing to burden their family even more if something terrible happens. Which it does.

Tatiana that was presumably her choice though - when we drew ours up, we stated we did not want them to come into effect until we lost capacity. Because I am 40 and still able to manage my own affairs. The OP’s mum could do the same. Drawing up a POA does not mean “handing over my affairs because I am too feeble to manage them myself”.

The arguments that some people have made, that 82 is far too young for a POA, seem to be under the misapprehension that POAs come into effect straight away. They don’t unless you want them to (and health ones never do).

OP, I'm sorry your having to deal with this.

To the people saying they don't feel that they "need" to sort out a lasting power of attorney yet. My parents, both 68 years old, healthy and enjoying the start of retirement, were getting around to doing it (ie had got a solicitor involved, but nothing signed), when my df was diagnosed with a brain tumor, within 2 weeks he was having surgery that could easily have left him without mental capacity (as it was it "just" paralysed him down one side), and within a year he was dead.

I'm 38, and I should be sorting out my LPoA, we all should!

OP, maybe you could take a different approach and lead by example, and show your mother that you are sorting out your own LPoA and will. You may just have to let the house full of shit go though, I don't think you will ever win that battle.

My MIL is the same, telling me gailey how much time it's going to sort out her stuff (um, no, dh will), this is tight after my mum died.

I calmly told her no, dh will take what he wants, then we'll get a company to price, sell, box and throw out the rest. I know that was rude but why on earth did she bring that up right after my mum dying?

I suggest you don't tell her that but do exactly that when the time comes. That's what people do that have a loved one on another country (as mil is) so why wouldn't it work local. I did my mums house. I'm not about to do Her house!

its taken me around 15 yrs of mithering to get mine to do POA and they are mid 70s and it only came about as something did happen to Mum and her recovery hasn't been the best and also she would not cope now if she was on her own. I am now trying to get them to update the will that names a long dead uncle as executor, has a codicil appting myself and my sister (eldest 2 of 6) using my previous name and an old address and an old address for her. Its all sortable but would just save hassle and grief if it were put right. Doesn't help that I am only just on terms with her. She is a very domineering character even though I am the eldest - my own fault in some ways as i just back out and leave rather than create conflict until she pushes too far then I blow a gasket! So that is going to be fun to sort!

My MIL had to sell her house to pay for care home and when she died there was just enough left to pay for the funeral. The will was pointless as no money left to go to anyone.
Seems to be the way these things go.

we stated we did not want them to come into effect until we lost capacity

Losing capacity legally and medically is a grey area. It’s generally analysed on a case by case basis ime. It’s not like one day you have it the next it’s gone (although that can happen), for many people it’s a long slide.

I have to make decisions about my aunt’s care, about adaptations in her house, I have to sign care home documents when she goes in for respite care, but she’s not technically incapacitated yet from a legal and medical POV.

I think we are in agreement though Tatiana - I assume your Aunt said that this was OK. I think people are running away with the idea that you sign PoA your Attorney starts meddling in your affairs even if you don't want them to.

Although one thing I would say is if you use a Solicitor get one that the person granting attorney is comfortable with. I don't think MiL was at all easy with the first one she had, and didn't feel able to ask questions. As I say, that PoA got scrapped, and she was happier with the new solicitor.

I finally persuaded my dad to sort wills out when he was 96 and Mum was 93. The solicitor suggested POA at the same time. Mum already had mild dementia but, as Dad was completely on the ball, the solicitor kind of ignored that and did hers based on Dad's instructions. Sometimes common sense is applied.

When the time came the house took two of us a week. We sifted through 64 years worth of stuff and it nearly broke me. I suspect it would have been just as bad if it had all been sorted out because it's just a heartbreaking job.

Probate took five months for Dad, four for Mum and I did all the paperwork myself. Dad was secretive about money, I found eight accounts I knew nothing about. That was what took the time. Neither of them left funeral instructions, I just did what I thought was right.
The point I'm making, I guess, is that it's shit however well it's prepared for.

What I do know, at 65, is the more our kids pressured us to "put our affairs in order", the more we'd dig our heels in. If she does it, she does it, if she doesn't, she doesn't. It won't be a picnic either way, just a bit less bad if she does.

Such a depressing thread, yes of course your parents should sort themselves out and be organised for your convenience. Ffs don’t be so tactless.