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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To ask what people are afraid of with a People's Vote?

832 replies

Bearbehind · 21/10/2018 17:36

Estimates reckon there were nearly a million people at the Peoples Vote march yesterday so support for it is high.

Why is it such a threat to others though?

If you're so convinced Leaving is the right thing to do for the country, why wouldn't you want that to be endorsed now people have a clearer idea of what is to come?

Or is it that you're worried Leave would now lose as it's been made clear there are no upsides?

In which case why do you want to go ahead with it anyway?

OP posts:
Maidsrus · 21/10/2018 21:08

Yes but there is still evidence to show
That the EU migrants have contributed economically

I think I can understand that people in poverty who have lots of migrants on their area might see it as a problem, but I think the problem is Tory austerity and the massive debt we’re in. That’s not the fault of the EU

Ta1kinpeace · 21/10/2018 21:17

The Beleavers do not know what they want
so they will be disappointed/ angry

The Remoaners Know what is being thrown away
so they will be very very angry

Sounds like an excellent way to go forwards

BananaBonanza · 21/10/2018 21:26

You cant restrict immigration. You can deport. They are slightly different. I think you're referring to the EU directive mentioned in this article .... you'd approve of the article Grin realistically mass deportation are not going to happen and aren't really desirable either. But that's not really the point. We can argue whether immigration depressed wages or austerity and the banking crisis. I don't think we'll ever have an answer. But it adds to the question.

Security wise having unrestricted boarders is deeply worrying. Deportation doesn't help if it's too late. That absolutely doesn't mean we shouldn't be accepting refugees and those in need. We absolutely should! But we should know whose in the country and who isnt

I also didn't like the bullying of Greece during their economic crisis.

But I would have voted for the customs union without freedom of movement. I'd probably have voted remain had Cameron got the concession he asked for. But to me that was evidential if everything wrong with the EU. Too busy promoting its own survival to listen to the needs of its member states

GhostofFrankGrimes · 21/10/2018 21:31

Other member states could leave but they aren’t. Kinda tells you everything especially when 2 years ago leavers were crowing about a “Brexit domino effect”

theymademejoin · 21/10/2018 21:41

@time4chocolate - another question for you (I'm not picking on you specifically but I think you're the only one who has said they would go for no deal. Any other no dealers, please feel free to answer).

Does it not bother you that no deal would result in the UK ripping up the gfa? Does it not bother you that your government, unless they were so inept that you would wonder about their ability to do up their shoelaces, must have known pre 2016 that the only way the gfa and brexit could work would be BINO and yet pretended this was not the case?

BananaBonanza · 21/10/2018 22:05

I think there's a problem in whatever solution is best for Northern Ireland isnt necessarily what's best for UK or for England.

I totally get the need for a soft boarder between Northern Ireland and Ireland. For me policing the boarder only when you get to the channel removes that issue. Question then is whether the EU chooses to impose a hard boarder and whether NI still wants to be part of the UK under those circumstances.

BananaBonanza · 21/10/2018 22:19

Add in the regulating of non EU compliant goods onto Northern Ireland and you really have no problem

theymademejoin · 21/10/2018 22:26

@BananaBonanza - it's the UK that will be imposing the hard border, not the EU. Was the point of brexit not to "take back control of our borders"?

NI is part of the UK. Throwing it under the bus doesn't seem like a very "unionist" (I'm using the term to refer to someone who is part of the UK, not a NI unionist) thing to do.

Surely if you are part of the UK you need to consider what is best for each element of the union, not just what is best for England?

Livingtothefull · 21/10/2018 22:34

'I think there's a problem in whatever solution is best for Northern Ireland isnt necessarily what's best for UK or for England.'

But NI is part of the UK. An integral part of the UK which means it is not for England to define whether NI is or isn't part of it. Bad for NI = bad for UK.

So you are happy to try to renege on our obligations under the GFA and just dump NI? Do you care at all about the future of the UK and our reputation going forward?

AveEldon · 21/10/2018 22:42

What are you hoping to vote on?
The government doesn't seem to have a plan
We appear to be members of a federation that no one knows how to leave

Xenia · 21/10/2018 22:52

Despite the numbers on the march most people do not support having a second referendum and neither does the Government and neither does the Labour nor Tory party so it is not going to happen.

However I support the right of people to engage in peaceful protest. Let them march.

EnthusiasmIsDisturbed · 21/10/2018 22:53

Another month of political posturing and lies no thanks

I agree with Ken Clarke that the first referendum that MP’s agreed to stand by the result was a mistake and lies were told and so would another one but the fight would be stepped up

It’s all political posturing I am sick on the hypocrisy from our MP’s

BananaBonanza · 21/10/2018 22:56

As far as i can see neither the chequers plan and the super Canada plan have the UK imposing a hard border on NI....

And the benefit of setting our own rules is we can choose where to enforce them. Thus standing by the ideals of the GFA.

I'm not a huge unionist as you define it and I think devolution isn't a bad thing if that's what parts of the country want. I'm aware that whilst the UK voted for Brexit most of NI didn't. Ni chose the be a part of the UK when the UK was heading towards closer political and economic ties with Europe. Given UK is now heading in a direction most of NI clearly doesn't agree with, it's really only respectful to check that an on going UK, even with Brexit, is what's wanted.

Regardless both the above Brexit plans have no need for the UK to impose a hard border in a location that doesn't suit its citizens. The rest is up to the EU but seeing as they say they don't want to disrupt the GFA one wonders why they would even consider imposing a border in a location that destabilises it either.

Walkingdeadfangirl · 21/10/2018 23:00

So if 600,000 people march in London then we should just ignore 17.4 million peoples votes. Is that democracy or dictatorship?

We have had several peoples votes already. A peoples vote to have a referendum, a peoples vote to leave the EU, an MPs & Judges vote to start A50, a peoples votes to continue with Brexit, more MPs votes to...

What will a 3rd/4th/5th peoples vote add to the mix, other than to cause chaos in the UK.

If the complaint is that we didn't know what we voted for how will another peoples vote be any different. Maybe when we know the exact terms and conditions of our Brexit situation then we can have a discussion about accepting the deal or leaving with no deal.

Until then people are just trying to create anarchy just because they are embittered about losing several votes.

MyBrexitUnicornDied · 21/10/2018 23:02

We appear to be members of a federation that no one knows how to leave

Oh we know how to leave, the difficulty comes with trying to leave without causing catastrophic damage to the economy.

generalexpert · 21/10/2018 23:06

Err no. I seem to remember talk of this being the easiest deal in history m. It could be done over a cup of tea. And of course they need us more than we need them.

I'm talking about people who can think for themselves. Do you believe the manifesto promises of all parties during the election? I would hope not.

I certainly don't need another vote because it is difficult. I knew it was going to be, that's why I voted remain. But don't assume people didn't understand the problems or take the promises with a pinch of salt.

Look how the EU have treated us in the last few months - with utter contempt. If there was a second vote I'd be tempted to leave for this alone!

MyBrexitUnicornDied · 21/10/2018 23:15

Do you believe the manifesto promises of all parties during the election? I would hope not

No I don’t. But when a government fails to meet any of its pledges I can vote them out in 5 years time.

The trouble is it’s not as if the lies were tiny. I’m not complaining that someone said the deal would be done in one afternoon over a cup of tea and it actually took a month.

This deal that was meant to be a piece of piss to sort out is actually insanely complicated and damaging. And I would like the U.K. public to get a say on whether that final deal is ok.

theymademejoin · 21/10/2018 23:15

Chequers and Canada plus would require the EU to rip up the four freedoms, so that was obviously never an option.

They are basically asking the EU to allow the UK to cherry pick the bits of the EU they like and ignore the bits they don't like. That was never an option. Why on earth would you expect the EU to discard the principles upon which it is built to facilitate the UK in its obligations to the GFA?

theymademejoin · 21/10/2018 23:21

@BananaBonanza - Ni chose the be a part of the UK when the UK was heading towards closer political and economic ties with Europe.

Seriously? That has to be one of the most ignorant statements I have ever seen. I know many British people are utterly clueless about NI and the history of Britain in Ireland but that really takes the biscuit.

time4chocolate · 21/10/2018 23:36

theymademejoin selfdetermination under the GFA, put it to the people of NI to decide? Nothing necessarily needs to be ‘ripped up’.

PersonaNonGarter · 21/10/2018 23:38

The OP is flawed - I’ve not heard anyone say they are ‘afraid’ of a second referendum, except that it may seem to disenfranchise the people who voted Leave in the first referendum.

Even the people marching for ‘a people’s vote’ don’t actually think it will happen or they would know what the question will be.

theymademejoin · 21/10/2018 23:54

@time4chocolate - selfdetermination under the GFA, put it to the people of NI to decide?

So let's take a very fragile, very hard won peace and tell the residents of NI that their choice is to either throw the nationalists to the wolves and remove all the hard fought rights they have achieved by sticking with the union or go for a united Ireland against the will of a large percentage of the population, with the resultant violence; and tell the unionists that the only way they stay part of the union that is fundamental to their identity is to take back all recognition of nationalist identity and deal with the resultant violence or accept a united Ireland that is anathema to their very being.

With attitudes like yours, I'm no longer surprised at the vote for brexit. Obviously you and your ilk don't give a damn about NI and you certainly don't seem to have any understanding of it.

time4chocolate · 22/10/2018 00:03

With attitudes like yours, I'm no longer surprised at the vote for brexit. Obviously you and your ilk don't give a damn about NI and you certainly don't seem to have any understanding of it

Well you can stop with that bollocks for a start,you know nothing about me but I will tell you anyway, I have family in both Donegal and just outside Belfast (but I was born in England) and I was the victim of an IRA bomb in London on my 13th birthday and saw a man have his legs blown off so you can take ‘people of my ilk’ and stick it where the sun doesn’t shine you complete and utter twat and I won’t be responding to you further.

theymademejoin · 22/10/2018 00:11

@time4chocolate - if that is the case, I'm surprised at your blasé suggestion regarding self-determination. You should know how fragile the peace is.

DoctorTwo · 22/10/2018 07:04

Similarly, I have heard people saying it will devastate the economy for 3 years and I still don't care.

Thanks @Winebottle for showing your concern for the majority who will suffer after Brexit. Jacob Grease Smug has already said it could take 50 years for the UK to recover. That's ok though, he's shifted his assets overseas.