To avoid women who do not like women

[abacucat]

If another women thinks women in general are bitchy, gossipy and much prefer men as she thinks they are more straightforward, then no I am not going to want to talk to you or spend time with you. If you show contempt for women in general, why would I want to talk to you?

As if men made objective choices...

Again, this is part of the socialisation differences. Boys are taught not to speak about their emotions or let them affect them too much and to stifle emotions. And they’re taught that success and winning are more important than feelings. So they’re taught that even if Martin is a complete twat, he’s really good at football so pick him for your team. Or that Dave is shit hot at sales, so you want him on your sales team even though he’s the most irritating man you’ve ever met. Most workplaces do still work along the lines which suit those with male socialisation, it’s the nature of businesses and workplaces that they have to be structured to value success and winning more than they value the feelings of their employees. Even when men do make decisions based on not liking someone, they’re very good at hiding it because they’ve been taught all their lives to do that.

Why is that, though?

It seems that a few men don't give the rest of them a bad name.

I’m not sure that’s entirely right. Reading through MN it often does feel like a few men give the rest a bad name.

Leaving that aside, I think the reason why is because, as I said, most of us spend most of our adult lives at work and they are mainly structured around the dominant values of male socialisation so it works for them. Women who have been socialised with the dominant female values of being led by feelings and emotion don’t get on with it as well. And because they’ve been socialised to think that is the right way for women to behave, they’re very bad at hiding it. Some women are quite good at unlearning that when they need to. But in my experience that often means they get rejected by the dominant group of females who value friendship and feelings above success. This is a particular problem, I’ve found, in female dominated professions like administration and nursing.

I’ve seen it happen loads of times. Women promoted to junior or middle management going one of two ways. Either they maintain their friendships and continue to swap mutual confidences and let workplace decisions be swayed by what’s going on in the friendship group and what they think of other people. For example: Mary’s employee, Tracey, is extremely hardworking, gets masses done, doesn’t waste time and is highly organised. The rest of her department don’t like Tracey much because she works through lunch, doesn’t discuss her personal life and won’t join in cake runs. So Mary doesn’t promote Tracey to a more senior position and instead chooses someone not as good as her job, but popular. Management know she’s done that and take Mary less seriously, view her as a lightweight and don’t progress her.

An example on the flip side would be Susan being in the same situation as Mary, promotes Tracey, management are pleased Susan has taken the best decision for the company by promoting the right person for the job, take Susan seriously and consider her for further promotion.

The problem is, when there are a lot of Marys about, a lot of people have the expectation that all women are going to be Marys as default and women actively have to prove they’re a Susan to get ahead. Susan’s friendship group amongst colleagues are annoyed and start to reject Susan.

On the other hand men are assumed to operate like Susan as default and aren’t required to prove anything. And men have to really, really fuck up to be branded a Mary.

Too many women still conform to expectations and will behave like Mary. Which means the rest of us have to work extra hard to convince people we are Susans. And yes, that may well mean that as we’re working our way up we avoid women like Mary and her friends which mean they’ll label us as not liking women. There’s not much the Susans of this world can do about that. It’s not really their problem anyway.

I’ve worked in lots of different workplaces and I’ve been supported to succeed by other women hugely. In fact many have taken me on in a mentor like capacity and when I progressed I did the same. Not because any woman had to, but I think because we all recognized how hard it was to progress.

There are differences, of course, I have born my children, I have different social and cultural expectations put in me than men have and we have different biologies.

However in that we have choices. I choose to not put other women down, avoid them and label them bitches or ‘tricky’. That’s not to say I like every woman I meet, or groups of women. I’ve been picked on by girls in school, I’ve been bitched about by women and men. And if a woman I know says that men are easier and more comfortable as other women are bitches then I think she’s being misogynistic and predjuced and I will avoid her.

Too many women still conform to expectations and will behave like Mary. Which means the rest of us have to work extra hard to convince people we are Susans.

do you really believe in this guff? Seriously?

I worked at a senior level in a STEM industry including many hours in the boardroom and I've seen men throw literal tantrums, hire unsuitable men into senior roles because they are their friends, put up with shit behaviour from men because they admire them etc etc. I haven't for a moment suggested that the reason men don't get ahead is because they behave like the bad Kevins who do this shit and not the good Garys who don't.

I've also seen men and women do really stellar and insightful work.

I know why men get ahead in industry etc. and it isn't because women are so emotional about their female friendships. That you even think that is so outrageously antiquated and anti-feminist - and also sadly buying into the ancient male narrative about why women aren't in the workplace. Do schools study history anymore? How can someone who can string sentences together spout this cliched crap?

Oh and do you also think women are hormonal and that affects them or do you manage to stop short of that tedious stereotype? It wouldn't surprise me if you didn't.

Yes, it is internalised misogyny. It is very clear from the comments here.

I've found over the last couple of years I'm coming across some women like this - I've been on the receiving end of some bitchy behaviour and I don't understand it.

I had one local woman who said to my DP, 'I've just seen Mawkish running. Well, I say 'running'

The beautician who spent the entirety of my manicure critiquing what was wrong with my face and how I could fix it. I came out of the appointment feeling like shit.

The woman who I saw as a kind of friend who told me I was rocking the Andy Pandy look - 'even your hair!- I was wearing dungarees, so what?

It gets a bit wearing. I wouldn't dream of commenting on someone's appearance unless it was to compliment them.

We're supposed to buoy each other up, aren't we?

mawkish, you met a few women who were bitchy, or were clumsily touting for business or offering advice they didn’t realise was unwelcome or said something badly judged. That doesn’t mean they dislike all women.

And ‘we’re supposed to buoy each other up’?

This is exactly the sort of thing I’m talking about. Women who don’t instantly fawn over every woman they meet or simply aren’t another woman’s cup of tea or perhaps don’t like one woman and are bitchy towards them get written off as just not liking women.

Has it occurred to you mawkish that perhaps you’ve annoyed them when you were having an off day? Maybe they’ve written you off as someone who just doesn’t like women too so they don’t feel the need to be nice to you?

As for buoying each other up, I certainly don’t feel I have a duty to buoy anybody up aside from family and close friends (even then not if they’re being a twat). I certainly don’t see it as my duty to buoy up random acquaintances purely on the basis we share the same reproductive organs.

I worked at a senior level in a STEM industry including many hours in the boardroom and I've seen men throw literal tantrums, hire unsuitable men into senior roles because they are their friends, put up with shit behaviour from men because they admire them etc etc.

Did you actually bother reading my post. I didn’t say that men never do things like that. I do think they do it less because they’re not socialised to think they have to appear ‘nice’ and ‘caring’ at all times and particularly towards their friends. And when men do this, they get away with it more because it’s not expected of them so can be brushed away as a minor abberation or a misjudgment. Plus it’s much more socially acceptable for men to stiff their friends and pass over them in business.

Yes, I know women can do that to when they want to and that they can be good employees. But there are still too many women who conform to the expectations they’ve been socialised with when they’re at work and are held back because of it.

I would add that STEM is one of the places you’re least likely to come across this sort of behaviour anyway because it’s so male dominated the culture just isn’t there to let it flourish.

When I worked in a STEM related job it was heaven, I’d come on, do my work and go home. I’d exchange pleasantries and have the odd chat about holidays or hobbies. I certainly wasn’t expected to have in depth chats about my weight or my relationship with my husband.

But when I worked in female dominated professions like with secretaries or nurses - yes - a lot of women do it. And a lot of ire gets aimed at women who don’t fit in to the stereotype. Not admitting makes work a more difficult place for a lot of women.

However in that we have choices. I choose to not put other women down, avoid them and label them bitches or ‘tricky’. That’s not to say I like every woman I meet, or groups of women. I’ve been picked on by girls in school, I’ve been bitched about by women and men. And if a woman I know says that men are easier and more comfortable as other women are bitches then I think she’s being misogynistic and predjuced and I will avoid her.

You’ve contradicted yourself there. You say you don’t bitch about other women or avoid them, even if they’re not your cup of tea. But in the next breath you put down and say you will avoid women who have a particular opinion you object to.

So again, you’re objecting to women who don’t fit in with a stereotype you have - that women should get along with other women better than men.

I love the idea that men, unlike women, always choose the best person for the job on an entirely rational basis at work. Have you never heard of the old boys club?! Nepotism, cronyism and favouritism are very, very far from being a female preserve.

Gingerrogered well, we see things differently then. In life I try to be a radiator, rather than a drain - to women and to men.

And one of the women I refer to above did tell me 'God, I can't be doing with feminists - I like men!'

But thanks for the totally unfounded assessment of the situation.

You didn't need to tell me you don't feel the need to buoy others up - I kind of figured it out

But in the next breath you put down and say you will avoid women who have a particular opinion you object to.

Who doesn't avoid people who have views they find offensive? Of course I avoid women who openly say they dislike women, just as I'd avoid anyone else who made actively hostile statements towards me. That's not anti-women, or even anti-women-who-dislike-women, it's basic common sense.

I like women I just don't like them around whatever twat they've decided to marry. Seeing them kowtow pretend to be stupid and pandering to them giggling and just acting like an airhead.

mawkish, that’s exactly the attitude I mean. You think you have to be a ‘radiator’ and make random women you don’t know very well feel good about themselves.

And you’re insulting me because I’ve said I don’t feel it’s my responsibility to go around making everybody feel good.

That’s exactly the attitude I’m talking about. You think it’s women’s role to be nice and caring and make everyone feel good and you judge women who don’t think it’s their job to waft through life telling every stray who crosses their path how wonderful they are.

It’s shit so many women still have the expectation all women should behave like this, especially one who claims she is a feminist.

Incidentally, if you don’t like people who say they’re not feminists then you don’t like most women. Only 7% of British women identify as feminists.

Okay, gingerrogered

I'm apologise for insulting you. I've had a long difficult week, but that's no excuse.

Enjoy the rest of your weekend.

I apologise.

I agree. I was recently on the receiving end of some really passive aggressive behavior from a 'nice' woman at work but she is the exception to the rule. Most women I get to know are warm, supportive, striving to live honestly, decently and we're all just doing our best. There are exceptions to that rule but men have set me back in my life far more than women ever have. So a woman who comes out with shit like ''women are so gossipy and bitchy'' makes me think ''well I know who to be wary around now, thanks''

Incidentally, if you don’t like people who say they’re not feminists then you don’t like most women. Only 7% of British women identify as feminists.

I'll bet every one of those 'non-feminist' women are more than happy to take all those rights - such as abortion, contraception, divorce, freedom to work and open a bank account without your husband's permission and a zillion others - which previous generations of feminists fought for, often at great cost to themselves and with very little support, and often bitter opposition, from all those men the 'non-feminist' women are so keen to pander to.

I like women who are not like the ones you describe in your first post, OP. My experience at school though was one where ALL the bullying of me was done by girls. They ganged up too. I got through it, like everybody does (if they're able to, some can't).

I studied in male-dominated discipline and work in one now (it still is). I have two very close friends; one male, one female. I don't want more friends than that. I have acquaintance-ships with everybody else and they're cordial - they're is kept at arms length and that seems to work.

I have to say though that I thought this thread was a joke thread. I was waiting to read 'lighthearted' or 'bollocks' somewhere but it seems to be authentically earnest. I've never come across such a site of mostly women posting, who are so disparate. Some are incredibly spiteful, jealous, vengeful, judgemental and mean towards women particularly. In fairness, I'd say that most can have days like that and those characteristics are tempered with kindness and peace most of the time. Or I hope so.

There are a few women here who I would absolutely steer clear of in RL though and swerve them here too. Most seem straight up and a few I delight in posting with.

Mawkish, I don't think you needed to apologise for you post at all. I think perhaps you might be a people-pleaser so disagreement with anything you say seems to wrong-foot you. Don't let it, you're entitled to your views.

I think generally men are more straightforward than women and a lot of women can be bitchy and two faced.

It’s nothing to do with contempt, it’s to do with personality therefore gender is irrelevant

Gingerrogered I agree entirely with your post at 15.08.

IcedPurple, you don't have to publicly label yourself as something to subscribe to it and define yourself as. It really grates when people take credit for what feminists achieved. The key thing is surely what they themselves did and are doing for the cause.

@LyingWitchInTheWardrobe

I genuinely do not understand this post.

IcedPurple, what I meant by it is that those achievements were massive, hugely benefited all women and were absolutely glorious. I don't think that any woman would say otherwise. I do think that many women do not enjoy being 'lumped in' with the back-biting and feeling that they're being plonked on some sort of feminist 'scale' to determine their worthiness as feminists. It's not on.

I find statements like 'happy to take all those rights so hard won' to be fatuous and somewhat self-aggrandising. A bit like BT puffing their chests out with the achievement of Alexander Graham Bell...

I don't want to derail the thread about this, it's an interesting thread.

what I meant by it is that those achievements were massive, hugely benefited all women and were absolutely glorious. I don't think that any woman would say otherwise.

So why do some women proudly claim that they are not feminists, if they are more than happy to enjoy the rights fought for at great cost by.... feminists?

I do think that many women do not enjoy being 'lumped in' with the back-biting and feeling that they're being plonked on some sort of feminist 'scale' to determine their worthiness as feminists

Again, I've no idea what you're trying to say here.

I find statements like 'happy to take all those rights so hard won' to be fatuous and somewhat self-aggrandising. A bit like BT puffing their chests out with the achievement of Alexander Graham Bell...

Err.... what?

Who do you think it was who won for women the right to vote? To have abortions? To work and be educated without male permission? It was feminists, that's who. And men, and some women, fought them every step of the way and would be more than willing to roll back these rights if given half the chance.

Of course, if all these 'non-feminist' women would be happy to go back to being basically men's property, as they would be without the work of generations of feminists, that's up to them. But I rather suspect they would not.

Totally agree with this post - before I had DC's I worked in finance. Multiple different teams in a large office. About 10 people were recruited (2 women out of those) and when the new staff were put into the new teams, there was a specific note from the department manager not to put the women in a certain team because they would get eaten alive by the other women in that team!