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Original poster

That a male just won a women’s cycling World Championship?

676 replies

Badmoonsarising · 15/10/2018 14:46

Can’t really get my mind round this tbh though i was aware of another male Laurel Hubbard taking medals in the Women’s Weight Lifting World Championships earlier this year. Are we really ready for males winning the Women’s Wimbledon Title and the women’s Olympic 100m Final?

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/10/15/trans-woman-rachel-mckinnon-cycling-world-championship/amp/

That a male just won a women’s cycling World Championship?
OP posts:
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14
TwistedStitch · 16/10/2018 12:40

I thought the mantra was that transwomen were the most marginalized and oppressed people in the world. Imagine having the sheer chutzpah to waltz up to the starting line up of a women's race when you are a 6ft plus bloke built like that. Imagine the confidence, the arrogance. And then celebrating the 'victory'. Oppressed by arse.

TwistedStitch · 16/10/2018 12:40

my arse. So angry I can't type properly.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 16/10/2018 12:48

Thank you too, Datun - I'm aware that you're particularly well informed poster on this matter while I'm not, so I'm kind of honoured that you gave me that great explanation Wink

From my limited point of view it does indeed seem to be about interpretation, leverage and downright exploitation, so I only hope that the "consultation" results in some kind of clarity, even though there'll doubtless be endless "test cases" to come

Not that my experience of "consultations" on other matters inspires any confidence; IME they're all too often a pretence of inviting public opinion on matters which have, in fact, already been decided by the self-interested Hmm

sluj · 16/10/2018 12:52

I really don't get all these "funny" stories about men competing in womens races and then stepping back at the end and confessing that they're actually men. At least they confessed but how gutting for the actual fastest female who was deprived of her crossing the line victory and subsequent celebrations. I'm not sure how it was intended but it comes across as the men reminding the women how superior they are.
Is it just me?

BruegelTheElder · 16/10/2018 12:54

Why don't we just do away with competitive sport? It's an archaic tradition with no place in modern society.

Satsumaeater · 16/10/2018 12:55

Twisted Quite.

Newsofas · 16/10/2018 13:03

Brugel - are you serious????

noeffingidea · 16/10/2018 13:05

Breughel why should we? Millions of people enjoy it, and it has a very significant place in modern society.

KatherinaMinola · 16/10/2018 13:12

I think the story about the 19yo running in the half marathon was just that he borrowed his mother's bib and then got confused when her name was called (because his bib number came in before any women).

Datun · 16/10/2018 13:13

Puzzledandpissedoff

Ha! I'm honoured you called it an explanation!

I think what irritates me the most is transactivists saying look, we've got all these EA laws already, the GRA reforms aren't going make any difference.

It's deceitful on several different levels.

First of all if you make being legally female a matter of filling out a form, it will have an effect. In prisons and all women shortlists. And anecdotally as something that is harder to counter, on a practical level.

Never mind the complete insult to women and the way it is already being shoved in their face. ( Shon Faye 'I'm a woman, even the law says so, enjoy your erasure').

Secondly, trans-activists are utterly determined to go after the equality law next.

The whole thing is a horrible, horrible mess. With a significant number of men utterly determined to twist and exploit the law to their own advantage. Riding on the back of men with gender dysphoria.

There are exemptions in place, which could be used. But organisations are too scared to use them. Or they are misinformed.

bigKiteFlying · 16/10/2018 13:14

Why don't we just do away with competitive sport? It's an archaic tradition with no place in modern society.

There's been a local to me who has done really well won few big things - it's promted a rise in number of local children trying the sport for a fairly wide area. I think it can play a role in getting more general population active though I suppose there are other ways.

JacquesHammer · 16/10/2018 13:16

Why don't we just do away with competitive sport? It's an archaic tradition with no place in modern society

I’m not sure how the most ridiculous comment on this thread actually doesn’t refer to McKinnon. That’s some going.

Puzzledandpissedoff · 16/10/2018 13:26

The whole thing is a horrible, horrible mess

You're not kidding Hmm I've been involved in activism all my life, though not on this issue, but this whole thing just makes my brain ache. Has the expectation of tolerance and the horror of judgement over absolutely anything really got to the point where we're expected to enable those saying, in effect, that black is white?

Sorry, but no ... just NO

As I said, I've come late to this because I was stupid enough to think it was a fuss about very little, but now I regret that I don't have enough understanding - or even the right words - to do anything about it

Datun · 16/10/2018 13:27

Puzzledandpissedoff And anyone else who's interested, there is a thread started about the background to the GRA.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3395998-Julian-Norman-in-the-House-of-Lords-10th-October

SlothSlothSloth · 16/10/2018 14:19

bigotedwoman I’m heartened by the fact that the commenters on that article almost unanimously see this for what it is.

CherryValance · 16/10/2018 14:24

I believe Rachel says that transwomen are under-represented in sport, which would make sense, as obviously there are still far more natal female athletes. However, does anyone have any stats on how proportionally successful those who do exist are? If there's 3 TW in a race of 3000, yes they are fewer and thus technically 'under-represented', but if they all take a medal...

How many are there and are they all winning at the expense of women?

SlothSlothSloth · 16/10/2018 14:29

How many are there and are they all winning at the expense of women

I would like to know this too, but I think I’m the long term it’s probably not that relevant. Even if there aren’t that many at the moment that will change soon as it becomes normalised and more and more trans women (and just men) realise they can do this and get away with it.

It is already worryingly normalised. Despite the backlash, I’ve seen a not insignificant number of WOMEN defending this on Twitter. Even five years ago I’m sure that would not have been the case.

CherryValance · 16/10/2018 14:40

SlothSlothSloth I just wonder what's happening now - as predicting things which haven't happened yet (even if we think it likely) is not a very good argument and can be dismissed as 'the sky is falling!' hysteria. If we had solid proof that all TW currently in women's sport ARE claiming their advantage, it would be easier to make an argument that this is unfair, without future projections that can't be objectively measured yet.

Annandale · 16/10/2018 14:59

I took up a sport when i went to university. Id never been any good at or interested in sport at home or my girls' school. I was flabby and unused to being out of breath. I had fun from the start. Within a few weeks i found i was good. There was coaching arranged for the women's team. I am really strong for a woman with broad shoulders, something i hated when i was a kid. Soon i was a real asset to the team. I placed well in some races. I got into the u iversity reserves and we won our races. I loved every minute. My health, shape, selfesteem, friendship groups, subsequent choice of career, were all transformed.

It's a power sport. Men and women compete separately but there is points weighting for experience, and also separate weight and age categories. Because it's about competition. Training is fun but only because of the competition, and only when the competition acknowledges reality. Sport is real; that's why it's such a joy, it's so simple, you turn up and do your best and that's enough. If i had to compete with men i would never have been selected for the team. Which means no practice, no coaching, no competitions and i would never have known i was any good. Rachel McKinnon is a selfish immoral person to do that in the name of women she claims to identify with.

SlothSlothSloth · 16/10/2018 16:09

Well cherryvalance I know what you mean but I think it’s probably a hard thing to collect data on, since most trans women now claim they literally ARE women. I’m not sure most organisations, including sports organisations, collect data on sex and gender identity - usually only gender identity. So trans women who are doing well may not be being recorded as trans.

There have been a few different examples of trans women succeeding in women’s sport. Fallon Fox, Laurel Hubbard and Andraya Yarwood spring to mind. These ones are probably well known as they look so male that the unfairness really jumps out. But there have been others too whose names I forget. These are just individual high-profile incidents that anyone could dismiss as scaremongering though, even though the logical end point seems obvious...

GladAllOver · 16/10/2018 16:56

I've been showing this thread and the pictures to male friends as well as female. If anything the men have been even more appalled than the women who hadn't heard about it.
it's madness!

Datun · 16/10/2018 16:58

GladAllOver

I do sometimes think the men get it quicker. Because they have no trouble imagining other men taking advantage of a loophole in the law.

GladAllOver · 16/10/2018 17:10

Some people - male and female - don't really believe it's true until you show them the pictures.

OlennasWimple · 16/10/2018 17:12

Agreed, Datun. And sport is particularly good for peak transing men who like sport, because most of them like things to be fair rather than so ridiculously unfair from the outset