What would your punishment be?

[Gizzygizmo]

my 7 year old destroyed his bedroom as we said he can't go outside after back chatting and refusing to get changed out school uniform.
He tipped every toy out his toy box including Lego and a bag full of pens and pencils, pulled all his clothes out his wardrobe including the pole, dvds flung all over the place. Literally like a tornado came through his bedroom.
He's refused to clean it and has said he don't want to clean it, he would rather we do it for him.
We said if we do it were bagging it all up and taking it away... he don't care, he said throw them away then
We have literally ran out of punishments to give till its done, he still don't care.
When he's sat up there attempting to Do it he draws all over himself and his stuff.
This morning I had enough and said I would guide him telling him what to do, BUT im not helping as he done it all himself so he has to learn, still didn't help even me being there telling him.
AIBU not helping him clean it up? And what would others do?

Not sure what the point was in asking for advice

If you want to turn this into something more positive perhaps say that for half an hour each day you will help him to sort bits out until it’s done. No screen time until that half hour is complete.

Yes, an absolute pain for you but it will reinforce that there are consequences (relevant ones) to trashing your room.

He sounds overwhelmed and sometimes the most annoying, cocky behaviour is in fact the child that needs time in rather than time out.

Worth a try?

Stick to your guns OP.

Exactly what RedSuitcase said. Fucking ludicrous. We reward bad behaviour and wonder why the next generation are growing up to be entitled, obnoxious little shits. Life has consequences. As parents it's our duty to show kids that.

I can't believe how many people are saying to hug him! How is that going to teach him right from wrong?

I think you've done the right thing bagging it all up and removing it. I would do exactly the same as I refuse to end up with a feral little shit for a child because I've not been able to say no or followed through with punishments

He'll soon get fed up in an empty room but once he's apologised and earned back his toys with good behaviour then hopefully he'll have learned a valuable lesson about bad behaviour and you can move forward

Most 7 year olds cannot tidy a totally trashed room without guidance / an adult breaking the task down into small steps

1. Pick up all the Lego and put it back in the drawer - just the Lego. All done? Good. Short break to drink a cup of water and walk around the house/ up and down the stairs.
2. Pick up all the books and put them on the shelves. Just the books. All done,? Good. Slightly longer break to go to the loo and then for a walk round the block with parent, then drink something and eat a piece of fruit or similar snack before getting back to the next step in tidying.
3. Pick up all the clothes and put them on the bed. Short break of 2 minutes (toilet or drink or stretch) then fold them all and put them in the cupboard, with a bit of folding advice and organising advice.

You may be punishing him for doing something he can't do.

Physically he can, but developmentally the organisation may be overwhelming.

Punishment should be a natural consequence of the crime. He's going to lose a lot of time to tidying up under your beady eye. Unfortunately so are you, but that's parenting...

Take all toys out his room and send him to bed
Confiscate all toys and telly for a week.

I did go give step by step hence why I was at a loss what else to try. It was the first he ever done something that bad

Gizzy sorry, I misunderstood and thought you'd just offered to do that.

My youngest is 7 and if I plonk myself in his room and issue clear, unemotional, manageable step by step instructions he couldn't just refuse to follow them. He's never trashed his room but has too much stuff and it gets into a state through play, especially if he has a friend up there with him for an extended period.

What exactly happened when you sat or stood in his room with him supervising step by step tidying?

I wouldn't punish as such. I wouldn't be giving him anything including tv or computer time but the punishment will be natural consequences. Things are broken, drawn on etc. Rooms a mess and he can't find anything. Let him tidy it up when he's ready - he's more likely to do it if you ignore and don't nag etc.

Then find out what's causing him such extreme anger and defiance. Behaviour is a form of communication. Set some clear ground rules - like he can have time out when he's done x y and z and stick to it.

I beg when you read ignoring him and he's sat in room looking at the mess and bored he'll soon tidy it up! Atm the drawing etc is because he knows it'll draw you back for attention.

Please let me explain the 'hug' theory.
It definitely isn't about rewarding bad behaviour. It's about defusing a battle of wills. Why are you all so certain that punishment works? Clearly it doesn't. The child feels cornered in a battle and he hasn;t done as he;s told. I can prmise you that a hig and a biscuit and an offer to help would have resulte din him doing at least 50% of the tidying by now. On top of that, he'd also have trusted the loving adult enough to explain why he got so angry and refused to do as he was told in the first place. And he'd be open to discussing ways to prevent the problem happening again.

It's about communication, not power struggles.

I have used Positive Parenting atehniques since Dc were tiny. DS1 has a will of iron. I ddn't want to break it, I wanted to teach him how to co-operate despite it. Loads of people tell me what a brilliant relationship we have now they are teens. They are never rude or aggressive. They are openly loving. And they do what I ask when I ask it. Sometimes need reminding but they are never, ever defiant. Because they know I respect them and that there are no power battles.
You can think it's a load of cobblers if you like but it works, it's harmonious and it teaches children how to behave far better than the overly harsh and dramatic act fo putting all his stuff in bin bags. How would you feel if someone did that to you if you disagreed with them? Would you think they were helping solve the problem or being a petty bully and escalating it? How is poor adult behaviour expected to help a child model good behaviour?

I'd place bets on people having more issues with teens if they start chucking beloved toys in bin bags and issuing threats than if they have a biscuit and a chat and solve it together.

Sorry - so many typos. But does anyone now see how it might work, who didn't see the point of it before?

Divas and Dictators by Charlie Taylor is brilliant for turning behaviour around and it's an easy read. He has run schools for children excluded from other schools so he knows his stuff.

Kids learn right from wrong because you model it for them. You don’t trash rooms. You don’t break things. You tidy things up. They see that. They already know it. They know that the room trashing is wrong, that is why they did it in the first place. Because they had so much anger and frustration they desperately wanted you to listen and to acknowledge. So they did the worst things that could think of to do in the space that they were in. Was the child isolated at that point? If a child is desperate for you to hear them and to understand the depths of what they are feeling and just how angry they are, and you send them away from you, and do not give them an outlet for those feelings, this seems a fairly logical next step for them. A physical example of how bad they felt and a way to punish you for taking them away from others and isolating them when they needed guidance the most.

The way the child sees it, you started it - we might not agree with this of course by doing tit for tat punishments we really are stooping to the level of seven year olds. “If you don’t give me that toy I’ll tell” “if you don’t put that away I’ll take it away from you”. How can they differentiate between these things? How can the child respect you if you are acting like their friend at primary school?

Where did the “must follow through on threats” thing come from? Why threaten things in the first place? Why do we threaten children? Why not show them that their behaviour makes you angry and frustrated but that you can and will calm down and be able to sort things out rationally - that is what you’d like them to do, is it not? You are sticking to what you said in anger and refusing to back down, they are sticking to what they did in anger and refusing to tidy it, you are not giving them skills by doing this.

Don’t isolate children when they are angry, they need you because they don’t have the level of control needed.
Don’t punish a child for letting their anger out in the only way they knew how - you are teaching them to suppress their feelings and to turn that anger inward on themselves next time. Give them ways and outlets for anger - you wouldn’t tell them to shut up and stop crying and tell them they are not allowed to be sad and if they are you will send them away, would you? Same with anger. It’s a normal human emotion and you cannot stamp it out of them by force.
Think of how you would feel if your room was in the mess theirs is? Even if they are braving it out, they are upset about it. They are upset too by their power to destroy things. They are worried about what is going to happen.
Punish them if you like, go for it, take everything away, but that is clearing up their mess, is it not?
Have you asked the child what they think should happen now?

I would be leaving the room as it was for a while. It’s their room. And it will let them have some control back. They lost control big time and they are probably embarrassed. Believe that most children do actually want to be good people. Leave some time and see what happens, and give them better ways to let their anger out next time - not by repressing it or destroying things.

Anyone is free to say none of this makes sense and I should send all their toys to the charity shop. I’m not saying that’s the wrong way. I am saying though that children are people, and normal, and learning, and they are learning from you.

Sorry but I stand for the hug camp. Hug is good for containment. At that age it still works. So I will greedily take advantage of it. When everything explodes up here he cannot and will not listen to you. Your calm containment with a hug will let him cool down and know on a physical level that he is loved even in his worst behaviour. He will calm down. Then he can listen. If you had not tried you do not know. By the time they are finished being upset they move on to sobbing and immediately excuse themselves. Then they start cleaning up in a blink. It's not saying I'll tell, it's saying you are out of boundaries you know it, you are excluding yourself, and you have to come back in the realm with us all. Getting out of his bubble and seeing things from another perspective, not mum's. Then you can reassess what has happened because while he is cleaning up he will open up and explain to you how he got there, you can then adjust and find a common ground with explicit rules that he wholeheartedly adheres to so that this does not happen again. Obedience comes from within. Any mum would know that you cannot just say clean your room. Even in normal circumstances it's not appropriate for a child this age. Later on they will know how to manage his feelings, most of them, and will have developed excellent communication skills. He's still learning, this time he did not pass, but he is a good boy and this is the worst he will ever do. And it's a two way road, it's not only about disobeying it's also about expressing in what way he has disappointed, and what you explicitly want from his. Pre teen is a very good place to iron out things, not everybody goes through rebellion as a teenager. When a child that is absolutely obedient starts to act up, in my experience, something has happened elsewhere. He might have had a bad day at school.

It's about defusing a battle of wills.

Except swap "defusing" to "losing".

Oh come off it Thisreallyisafarce - if you've stooped to fighting a battle of wills with a 7 year old you might win the battle, but you're on the way to losing the campaign of parenting.

Parenting isn't a war.

Defusing is exactly what a parent does to a battle of wills with a child. You don't declare war on your 7 year old.

Yeah well I wouldn’t hug him.

If he did that at school there wouldn’t be hugs going on.

Give him a clear visual time limit and then if he doesnt do it in the time, put it in bin liners in the garage. Doesn’t have to be done nastily. Just a consequence.

He wouldn’t do it at school. He would save it all up until he got home and unleash it on you. Where he feels safe.

Take that option away too, and he’ll either turn it inwards until he has no choice on where he lets it out.

You know that’s not good, right?

If you have run out of punishments and your child still won't do what you have asked then you have already lost the battle.

7yr olds do not have the emotional experience to deal with their extreme feelings. You need to accept that it has now become a battle of wills and change tactic.

Leave his room as it is, walk away, and give him an opening to talk to you and work out how to put things right. Piling punishment on top of punishment will not solve the problem, nor will it prevent the same thing happening again.

So many people suggested giving him a hug? Absolutely hilarious!! No wonder kids are so entitled nowadays. It’s all about them & how they feel, no regard for others around them! He needs to learn that actions have consequences. Making a mess means cleaning it up not getting a bloody hug!

I would say that he wouldn’t do it at school because he would know that if he did he would be told to clear it up. If kids did that at school and were offered hugs afterwards then of course they would do it again - they would all do it. It would become normalised or even encouraged behaviour because the consequence was positive.

I’m sure a lot of you wouldn’t say that if you had your 7 year old grinning at you saying I’m not cleaning it up, throw it all in the bin then.
He wasn’t upset or seemingly phased by it, a hug would not defuse the situation or solve it.
I asked for advise as to weather it was unreasonable of me making him do all of it, even though i tried staying with him to give clear single instructions at a time so he didn’t get too over whelmed on where to start. He got told to move all the big stuff and then begin the Lego. He didn’t move a single item and we go no where at all.
I’m not a horrible parent, but i am a parent who has rules in place and will not accept him destroying his bedroom and being very rude.

I would just leave the room as it is - his room is his space. The natural consequence of him trashing his room will be him not being able to play or find anything.
After a few days he will probably want to do something about it, that when I would step in with helping him tidy up, breaking it down into manageable chunks.
Him saying he's not bothered about you taking his toys away is him talking in anger, in the heat of the moment. Personally I wouldn't have threatened that in the first place.