to stop shopping at M and S for selling hijabs for young girls

[worstmotherintheworld]

So M and S have started to sell hijabs as part of their school uniform range...aimed at primary school children. One reviewer helpfully suggests getting the small one for a 4 year old.

I have been shopping at Marks all my adult life and have remained a faithful customer despite some dodgy clothes of late and the uninspirational Sparks card, but I think this is going to be the last straw for me.

I think I love you @JacquesHammer

No nose turning involved sloth an observation

Retirees in Spain isn’t a fair comparison. Not the same need to learn the language, there’s not the same need to integrate, no need of work, schools etc.

By that i meant no children going to school, as in a need to know the same language as them.

Interested JacquesHammer to see what work you do with the Muslim community.

Hijab for girls is -
www.marksandspencer.com/hijab/p/p22522579?itureRedirect=hijab&ddkey=https%3AMSFindItemsByKeywordSecure&pdpredirect

wauden just clicked on your link.
😳
Is the issue here the age of the children this is aimed at?
-also looks a little like a Halloween costume-

Bugger! That last bit was supposed to be crossed out to show a kind of tongue in cheek wry humour! Fuck

@Aintnothingbutaheartache, I think the OP sums up the issues well.

Modesty is interpreted differently in every culture or even every family . I had a friend who wasn't allowed to wear short skirts , but my mother didn't care. I have some family members that won't wear sleeveless tops and prefer t shirts. I think we just need to be accepting of each other's choices.

Women are always being told how to dress in every culture. If our skirts too short were a slut. If our skirts too long were oppressed. We need to let young girls know that they can wear whatever they want without being labelled. Whether that's a hijab or a bikini. As long as it's not forced and they are comfortable - who are we to judge ?! We also need to stop making assumptions about whether someone is oppressed or not ! Unless you spoke to the person directly and they told you they feel oppressed , don't assume !

I am not that happy that so many little girls are our closest primary school , very very little ones, have head covering. It does restrict them and it sets them apart and affects how they are and how they move and is unfair on them at that age. I think it would be better if they could choose around age 13 if they cover their head or not, Let them choose at an age when they had had exposure to all kinds of women, femininst thought and the like and they then make a conscious choice.

I know plenty of girls wearing hijab just to prove a point that they wear it because they want to. Also know many young girls wearing it as a fashion statement.

Also know many Muslim girls that don't wear it at all. You wouldn't know that though because they look like just the rest of us- so you're just busy concentrating on the ones that look outwardly "Muslim" but really we're surrounded by them .

Also know a couple who wear it because their mother keeps moaning at them about it the way my mother moaned about my skirts. The way I rolled mine up round the corner , they whip off their scarves too.

I wouldn't say I was oppressed because my parents wouldn't let me wear my skirt how I wanted and I wouldn't say previous girls were oppressed because their mother wouldn't let them go with their hair on show. They still loved them , it's just something they believed was right and would nag like all our parents have done when we were young with better legs.

Everyone needs to chill out- woosahhhh. 

Does that include this lot? - wooosahhh

newint.org/features/2018/08/10/iranian-women-protest-veil

According to Islamic law, a girl doesn’t require modest clothing until after she starts her period. Islamic parents often encourage little girls to wear hijab / modest clothing early so they then don’t need to call it out when they start their period. Like every Middle Eastern religion it’s the shame of periods which makes people make a lot of stupid decisions.

Thanks to the link about Iran. Each time I have been there for work as soon as we get back on the plane al the Iranian women (except about 1 or 2 older ones) immediately whip off the head covering so that does not suggest in their cases huge enthusiasm to wear it.

I'd be surprised if this wasn't done for their Indonesian/Malaysian market and not really available anywhere but online in the UK. Has anyone actually seen them in stores?

I've been living in the ME for 13 years and never seen hijab on young girls who aren't Indonesian or Malaysian, where it seems to be a bit of a cultural thing.

Honestly, it's probably more a bid by the company at inclusion. I doubt they'll be selling out of them.

I said um because we're not Christian. She said 'They can't make you do anything'. I thought that was an appalling attitude especially when there were good alternatives and you were potentially taking places from C of E families.

Er, you don't know much of the whole ethos of the C of E do you? The C of Es doctrines were formed as part of a movement which advocated scripture being read by ordinary people and not just the clergy. As such, they have always advocated literacy and education and the right of people to read and interpret religious text themselves and make their own minds up about them. The CofE used to be the primary education provider in this country and as such did not discriminate on the basis of faith but took any children. It would really go against the whole ethos of Protestantism to exclude people from learning.

More recently, the CofE is a huge advocate of interfaith understanding and friendship. They very rarely seek to create spaces for CofE. They usually avoid evangelism towards other faiths too.

If you're keeping your children out of a CofE school because 'that's for Christians' then you're a bit daft. That Muslim woman obviously understands the cultural background of CofE education and the whole CofE ethos better than you do.

If I went on a vegan thread and started associating them with extreme animal activist groups, you would rightfully think it was bonkers.

But people who put little girls in hijabs or women who wear niqabs aren't moderate Muslims are they? It's generally a signal they are hardcore Wahabi/Salafi extreme Muslims.

I know quite a few Muslims who object to underage hijab wearing and niqab wearing as they feel it reflects badly on them. As they are often some of the most visible Muslims, they feel other people see that as what being Muslim is about and it does give an impression of separatism and the Muslims approve of.

Anecdotally, my Muslim ex boss had four daughters (whose fingers he was thoroughly wrapped around) who all went to University and had professional careers. His Dad had come over from Pakistan to work in the mills but had aspirations for his children and Grandchildren. My boss was very proud he'd reached management level in the NHS and his daughters had done even better.

It annoyed him that a lot of people assumed his daughters would be locked up at home doing housework, not allowed to talk to other people, because of the impression other people gave. He also thought people who wore them were betraying their grandparents by rejecting opportunities in favour of separatism and extremism when those grandparents had endured a lot of hardship to give their families access to those opportunities.

Don't assume all Muslims like or support the idea of niqabs or hijabs for children. Most don't.

Hijabs are pretty and if little girls want to wear them then

Do you actually know what a hijab is?

An ad keeps coming up on my screen now and because M&S have presented it with no face, I keep seeing it out of the corner of my eye and thinking it's some kind of Hallowe'en outfit (ironically).

Anyway, with or without a face, pretty it aint.

The concept that a woman or girl of any age should cover themselves up in this way is oppressive.

Banning stuff is distinctly illiberal (and there'll always be the odd minority who choose to wear a symbol of oppression without coercion by anyone).

The solution here is for attitudes to develop to the point where the overwhelming majority of Muslims realise that it is oppressive and reject it.
I have many Muslim friends who do not enforce these oppressive customs. They are Muslim. They are Britsh. They are progressive. This is the future. Everyone practicing whatever religion they like; everyone accepting of others; everyone happy; no oppressed women.

Normalising these oppressive customs, as M&S are, is not helpful. It's their right to make money from this if they wish. And I can see the argument that it is inclusive. But ultimately it will contribute to this particular form of oppression lasting a little longer than it otherwise would.

Round here it's mainly somali Muslims whose young girls wear hijab often when they are of pre school age. It doesn't appear to restrict them - they are very self confident children.

There will be as many reasons for wearing these things as there are women. As with make up, some see it as a symbol of oppression, others find it liberating and empowering, others wear it to express themselves or stand out, others to blend in, some won't leave the house without it. None of these reasons are wrong. So to ascribe one reason eg. All women who wear make up are trying to look sexy, is clearly rubbish. It's the same for the hijab. Plus there may be an additional religious aspect for some.

I don't see hijab for children as any worse than school skirts. It's just that we are blind to all the sexism in our own society

@eightoclock your makeup analogy actually works against you in this instance. If I knew M&S was selling make up for 4 yo in a store to wear to school I would be disappointed.

Make up is not for dc to wear on a day to day basis at school and I think that’s where the OP was going with this discussion as to why M&S were selling hijabs for children to wear at school on a daily basis.