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Original poster

To think the tide is turning with transgenderism

999 replies

abacucat · 11/10/2018 10:05

There have been a flood of articles in mainstream newspapers criticising transgenderism and putting forward the feminist perspective. It is not long ago that no mainstream newspaper would carry these articles. The tide seems to be turning.

OP posts:
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7
M3lon · 12/10/2018 01:46

I'm not sure I understand all the 'you can't feel like a woman' talk. Do we no longer accept the diagnosis of gender dysphoria any more?

By the way I am against self ID due to erosion of rights - I just also believe there are people who incorrectly identify their own gender, in more or less a similar way to that in which people with anorexia mis identify the state of their physical body, and the transabled believe they are disabled when they aren't.

I do feel the existence of the gender dysphoria diagnosis means there is a way to define if someone believes they are female when their body isn't.

Ereshkigal · 12/10/2018 01:47

I'm sorry SoftDay. I am being a bit flippant here. I agree it's really hard and can be overwhelming to think about it all in stark reality Thanks

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 01:48

I’ve never seen a satisfactory answer as to what it means to ‘identify as’ a woman. I am a woman but I really can’t say that I identify with any sort of intrinsic feeling of ‘woman-ness’ it just seems such a bizarre concept. And I think a lot of women feel the same way on this one

Well this is where we all differ, as I feel womanly both physically and mentally and that's presumably where the problem lies as some refuse to see that as an answer.
It's not the right answer as a woman for some.

Ereshkigal · 12/10/2018 01:48

I accept the diagnosis of gender dysphoria. I don't accept it actually means feeling like a woman because it can only ever be your second hand idea of what feeling like a woman would feel like.

Ereshkigal · 12/10/2018 01:50

Really, really, not confusing you with anyone else. You do it repeatedly.

I've never got any answers from you. Just like you're not answering Datun.

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 01:51

Well this is where we all differ, as I feel womanly both physically and mentally and that's presumably where the problem lies as some refuse to see that as an answer.
It's not the right answer as a woman for some.

M3lon · 12/10/2018 01:51

I sometimes have dreams in which I am male bodied. I also sometimes imagine the future and see myself in that future as male bodied. but 99.99 times out of a hundred I dream I am female and picture myself in a future scenario as female.

But I do experience the opposite. I imagine if I were to spend more like 99% of my dreams in a male body and constantly picture myself in a male body when visualizing the future, I would start to feel disconnected from my real physical body. I would start to feel like the male version of me was correct and my body didn't match my mind.

Now personally I would hope that I would be treated as having a mental health problem (similar to anorexia and transableism) rather than being offered surgery. But maybe we have no effective psychological treatments.

Datun · 12/10/2018 01:52

SoftDay

It's a process. Being heart sore and weary is part of it, too. I agree. But the original OP was is the tide turning. Yes, it is. Without a doubt.

It's been a long time since I engaged with somebody like Verbeena and I should probably have stopped several posts back.

I disagree that the fight is lost. Self ID might well go through. But people are now awake. Mainstream media is gearing up and the genie will not go back in the bottle.

One of the amazing things I've noticed about this issue is that it's producing more and more feminists. As you rightly point out, identifying the misogyny is what does it.

SmallButFierce · 12/10/2018 01:52

Dysphoria isn’t a necessary aspect of being transgender as far as I understand (please correct me if I’m wrong on that).

Ereshkigal · 12/10/2018 01:53

Well this is where we all differ, as I feel womanly both physically and mentally and that's presumably where the problem lies as some refuse to see that as an answer.

You were asked what three feelings you would say were the most womanly that you have.

SoftDay · 12/10/2018 01:54

Erishkigal, thank you for the flowers and absolutely no need to apologise to me. I'm venting my sense of hopelessness, stagnating in my trough of inertia, while better women - like you and many others - are fighting the good fight. Thank you, from my heart. I should be trying to buoy you up, not wallowing in defeatism. I don't know how people keeping going at it.

Binglebong · 12/10/2018 01:54

Beautifully written Softday.Flowers

Thank you Louis. Glad your autocorrect is now behaving. Smile

Ereshkigal · 12/10/2018 01:55

One of the amazing things I've noticed about this issue is that it's producing more and more feminists. As you rightly point out, identifying the misogyny is what does it.

Yes, I think a new wave of woman centred feminism is forming. Even gradually in young women.

M3lon · 12/10/2018 01:55

I would take 'identify as a woman' as literal...as in when ever I picture myself I see myself automatically in a female body.

There are lots and lots of ways in which my self identity doesn't match up with reality. When I picture myself I'm better looking, younger, thinner, and I am more confident and dynamic. Usually I still have breasts etc. but occasionally I don't. This leads me to conclude that the gender of your automatic self-identity is also subject to variation.

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 01:55

But the original OP was is the tide turning. Yes, it is. Without a doubt

In your opinion.It's interesting that there's more dissenting voices out in the main boards though and away from FWR. You'd be lucky if there was more than one on there to back up another getting piled on for disagreeing. Which is why people hide the board.

Ereshkigal · 12/10/2018 01:56

Thank you SoftDay for the kind words.

Ereshkigal · 12/10/2018 01:56

We are on the main boards, Verbeena.

SmallButFierce · 12/10/2018 01:56

But what do you mean by feeling ‘womanly’?

SoftDay · 12/10/2018 01:57

Thank you, Datun. I am regretting my defeatist diatribe. I am so grateful to all the women, and the few notable men, who are ploughing this lonely and thankless furrow on behalf of women, girls and vulnerable children of both sexes.

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 01:57

And I said the name three feelings a woman has is the exact same question as what is a woman but rephrased to be new.

M3lon · 12/10/2018 01:57

small no - dysphoria isn't necessary any longer, in fact it seems like the entire transgender movement is being hijacked by people who have never experience gender dysphoria.

But that is no reason for people on threads like this to claim that 'identify as female' cannot possibly mean anything - because in the case of dysphoria it would appear to.

VerbeenaBeeks · 12/10/2018 01:58

Yes, I know, and I said it's interesting how more people disagree with you out here. But again, I think you know that.

Ereshkigal · 12/10/2018 01:58

How convenient. So you haven't actually given an answer. An answer shouldn't be considered the least explanation you can get away with. Datun asked a question in good faith.

Ereshkigal · 12/10/2018 01:59

Yes, I know, and I said it's interesting how more people disagree with you out here. But again, I think you know that.

Yeah, pretty much the same posters as on other recent threads.

Datun · 12/10/2018 02:00

I'm not sure I understand all the 'you can't feel like a woman' talk. Do we no longer accept the diagnosis of gender dysphoria any more?

I've asked quite a few transwomen to describe how they feel like a woman. I've said the day before you had surgery you must've had a million thoughts going through your brain. What were they? What did you think you would feel like? How does it feel to be a woman?

I've never yet had a response. The answer is I just know, I just am. With every single world in the English language at their disposal, they can't describe it.

The reason is, being a woman is not feeling.

It's material, physical reality - a description of your biological sex. Men can't possibly describe it. So they have to cast around for another definition.

Of course gender dysphoria exists. But the definition of a woman is not a man with gender dysphoria.