To think the tide is turning with transgenderism

[abacucat]

There have been a flood of articles in mainstream newspapers criticising transgenderism and putting forward the feminist perspective. It is not long ago that no mainstream newspaper would carry these articles. The tide seems to be turning.

We all are #loveislove

Love is love would mean soooooo much more if you actually meant that.

I do

VerbeenaBeeks

Patricia thinks it's understandable that transwomen don't want to be in men's spaces. But that doesn't mean they should be in women's spaces.

Does that not sound reasonable to you?

Patricia is taking care of their own needs, without infringing on those women. Sounds eminently sensible to me.

Your previous comments would say otherwise, but you know that really. Twisty twisty faux innocence shit again.

That was to the one before datun. Cross posted.

Presuming you're talking to me Verbeena, why would my previous posts say otherwise?

You need to copy and paste the comments to which you are referring. Otherwise none of it makes sense. (That might account for the tortuous path of this thread).

Again, twisty,twisty, faux innocence shit again. Anyone can read back this thread and see for themselves, or see your posts on FWR.
Nice try again tho.

Spell it out, or give it up.

I don't speak for anyone.I speak for me.

Got it.

I think the phrase 'transwomen are women' is exclusive and hurtful to those of us who are proud of our trans-identity.

Perhaps the phrase "Some transwomen are women" would be a more inclusive compromise?

I suppose if we accept self-identity as trans-women, it also becomes literally true.

You need to copy and paste the comments to which you are referring. Otherwise none of it makes sense. (That might account for the tortuous path of this thread)

No point. Literally, you engage,you get lolled at and told it's the wrong answer or twisted around when you do point out and try to be made out you said something else.
You're right it is torturous. Ridiculous and torturous.

By your bizarre definition that post of yours could almost be described as "gaslighting".

Spell it out? Have repeatedly to ya, but you never want to see, you make that BLINDINGLY clear on all the threads.

Indulge me. Do it again.

Yes, people do get 'lolled at'. True.

I think the phrase 'transwomen are women' is exclusive and hurtful to those of us who are proud of our trans-identity.

Absolutely. Who'd want to be lumped in with actual women? How shit would that be?

Do it again?
Now it''s my turn to lol,and not because someone puts across a point different to mine and I refuse to accept like other posters have done.
Do you seriously think people are that daft? As I said, but have to keep saying as it's not sinking in,people do answer, get lolled at, and end up resorting to but we're not engaging when asked "but what is a womannnn but answer right or we're not listening" questions.
You have no intention of listening.

You pretend to listen, get an answer, and then the insults start up. Then it all starts up again from the beginning.

You have to spell it out for it to be taken seriously. Go on then. I've forgotten what you were meant to be demonstrating actually.

This thread is utterly depressing. I am not a prolific Mumsnet poster; I certainly am not an FWR regular. I have followed the development of the self-ID debate there and the broader discussion on the implications and ultimate potential outworkings of the transgender ideology for women and girls, and for free speech within a background context of increasing authoritarianism on the so-called liberal left.

I find the arguments of the gender critical posters logical, compelling and, frankly, alarming. I find many, though by no means all, of the posters arguing against the gender critical position generally well meaning and clearly decent people. I can see that they believe passionately that theirs is the tolerant, progressive and humane position. The problem for me and for many people, not just on Mumsnet but also in real life, is that their arguments don't really amount to much more than rather high-handed appeals to kindness and to embrace all comers to "womanhood" in a veil of muddled thinking and alarmingly oppressive thought and language policing.

What strikes me as most depressing in all this is that we - women who nearly all, on all sides of this particular debate, consider ourselves feminists and would probably agree on a broad range of issues pertaining to the liberation and advancement of the female sex - are tearing ourselves to pieces in disagreement over precisely how to delineate the rights, entitlements and prioritisation of a small (but ever expanding) subset of biological males within female spaces, discourses and sexualities.

Some of those who accuse FWR posters of transphobia have been described by the latter as hard of thinking. If that were true, it would be some comfort. In fact, what I am seeing is a cohort of evidently intelligent, articulate and highly engaged women arguing passionately for the prioritisation of the feelings, entitlements and varied claims of a subset of biological males without any apparent ability - certainly no willingness - to recognise that what we are seeing in the new radical transgender movement is that old spectre Misogyny in shiny new clothing. I really think the fight is lost, at least for this generation. I feel heartsore and weary of it all.

I think you're confusing me with someone else. I've never got any answers from you.

I’ve never seen a satisfactory answer as to what it means to ‘identify as’ a woman. I am a woman but I really can’t say that I identify with any sort of intrinsic feeling of ‘woman-ness’ it just seems such a bizarre concept. And I think a lot of women feel the same way on this one.

I read something recently that described ‘man-ness’ as being things like: strong-willed, logical, athletic, leader, builder, protector. ‘Woman-ness’ was things like: empathic, sensitive, caring, teacher, caretaker, supporter. I don’t ‘identify’ with one or the other of those, I’d say I’m all/most of those things (probably more of the ‘male’ things actually) which apparently makes me ‘genderqueer’ - it is just total nonsense.

So this whole concept of ‘feeling’ like a woman, and ignoring the actual physical aspects of being a woman, makes little sense to me because my concept of myself as a woman is pretty much based on physical reality not my internal feeling of self (which I don’t really see as having a gender).

I’d be genuinely interested if someone could explain that without reference to such ridiculous gender stereotypes.

Really, really, not confusing you with anyone else. You do it repeatedly.