To think the tide is turning with transgenderism

[abacucat]

There have been a flood of articles in mainstream newspapers criticising transgenderism and putting forward the feminist perspective. It is not long ago that no mainstream newspaper would carry these articles. The tide seems to be turning.

It's teasing and piss taking. It's all quite normal. It's relentless on FWR.

The Shania Twain argument.

I'm sorry, I'm actually laughing really quite hard. It's meaningless

To YOU. Meaningless to you and the others on the "other" side of the argument. That's why there's so many Groundhog Day posts,as you refuse to or can't see any viewpoints different to your own.
Very definition of closed off mindset, no?
That's why people don't engage apart from soundbite "no points." When you do hear others, you refuse to listen and belittle instead.
As I said before getting suckered in again, absolutely fucking pointless.
You'll never be happy unless we say all transwomen smell and should bog off to their own third space because they're all potential rapists, blah blah blah.
Round and round we go again.

OK, Verbeena Do you mean you would accept that only transwomen with GRC can enter womens' spaces,
or would you widen the scope to others ?

Or would it be easier to say which transwomen you would exclude ?
e.g. TW with convictions for violence against women
TW who has not tried at all to look like a woman, e.g full beard

As I said, no fucking point. Nice try tho.

Noone has claimed all transwomen smell,
or that they are more likely than other men to be rapists

Do you believe in excluding other men from single sex womens' spaces - i.e. do you wish to abolish single sex spaces ?

I meant defining women as something physical and mental, without going any further than that is meaningless.

Reminds me of a date, years ago, with a chap who said he was a banker, and when I probed further said he was involved with investment thingies.

Noone has claimed all transwomen smell,
or that they are more likely than other men to be rapists

Point.
Whoosh.
Head.

I do try to ask genuine questions, to see if we have some points of agreement

I meant defining women as something physical and mental, without going any further than that is meaningless.

What the hell do you want people to say? What is the "right" answer? It's becoming very twisty again.

Which could mean he works in N investment bank as a trader or he runs the lottery syndicate at work.

I thought I might be able to squeeze a little bit more information out of this thread for anyone who might be lurking. But I don't think I can.

Trans-women (by definition) are of male sex, and have a gender that they feel doesn't match.

I don't think anyone wants to other them from their rightful, and currently existing male-sexed spaces at all.

However, if they would like special dispensation away from male-sexed + man-gendered spaces, for their own comfort and feelings of safety, then I would absolutely support that.

Obviously, this would have nothing to do with a female-sexed space.

It's very difficult to debate when you get into a huff about genuine responses to what you say,
or questions to see if we have points of agreement

It may be clear in your head what you mean, but it's not clear to me.

FYI: I am far into the Asperger's spectrum, so I often don't understand unless people state clearly to me what they want or don't want

However, if they would like special dispensation away from male-sexed + man-gendered spaces, for their own comfort and feelings of safety, then I would absolutely support that.

Obviously, this would have nothing to do with a female-sexed space.

Yes, that's it, isn't it.

I do try to ask genuine questions, to see if we have some points of agreement

Try answering questions, you get told you're being laughed at, it' meaningless, we've even had "that's what it's like out in the public domain" to someone saying that they're fed up of trans throwing their toys out of the pram, demanding rights etc.
No point. When there's posters determined to twist and laugh at everything and stick up for outright demonising of a whole group post and refuse to see and come over all innocent, there's literally no point.
It's clear as day other viewpoints aren't tolerated.

Patricia I think all of us on FWR would support a 4th space, because that is adding something to improve the lives of transwomen
without reducing the comfort and safety of women.

Ereshkigal

Well, that would be it if this was about safety and comfort.

If it's about other, less airable reasons, then it would be unacceptable, but difficult to articulate why.

I actually feel sorry for them in a way. Imagine spending your entire life being consumed with the need to have other people agree that your... misconceptions about yourself... are true.

Not sorry enough to look at their penis while I'm showering at the community pool but, I do feel for anyone who must live with such a profound lack of internal self. And of course, I have NO sympathy for men who feel the need to dominate women lest they "lose their humanity". Who does that???

I truly feel that the psychiatric associations have much to answer to. THEY let this pandora out of it's box and now, they just sit back while other people have to catch and contain the beast. And as if that's not enough, the medical community refuses to acknowledge the harm their sexist beliefs have visited onto women. First there were lobotomies, then there was assuming women's bodies needed the same medications and dosages as men, and probably other injustices I am ignorant of, and now this.

I think it is the medical community who needs a national Day of Remembrance, all those women whose lives they destroyed due to their prejudiced against females. Just as an annual reminder for them that in every generation now and in the future, they assume they are "helping" women when in fact they are destroying some of the most vulnerable of us.

Indeed.

To Patricia's comment.

BigChocFrenzy

I agree.

Some people are trying to frame it as 'othering' because they make the mistake of categorising trans-women into a female-sexed space, from which they are then othered.

The truth is that they are of a male-sexed category (sex, not gender), and no one wants to other them, unless they wish a degree of separation (from male spaces) for themselves, which they do.

Not sorry enough to look at their penis while I'm showering at the community pool

No, quite.

Whenever I ask direct questions though, you just say how terrible we are
We can never progress like that

I understand being viscerally hurt that others won't accept a deeply held belief, but let's try to progress beyond the hurt

Very well put, Patricia