To think the tide is turning with transgenderism

[abacucat]

There have been a flood of articles in mainstream newspapers criticising transgenderism and putting forward the feminist perspective. It is not long ago that no mainstream newspaper would carry these articles. The tide seems to be turning.

VerbeenaBeeks

You're not being clear. I still don't know what you think, because it's so vague.

You see problems with self ID but you're not against banning tw together. So what is the criteria?

Altogether

This thread started out being quite interesting but just seems to have gone into groundhog mode now 🙄

To answer the original OP, I think people are more willing to actually say what they think. I don’t know anyone IRL who would genuinely think TWAW as it’s patently just not true. Lots of people are still very cagey about it though, especially on social media, as we all know the ‘approved’ thing to say is not that! I don’t know anyone IRL who believes self ID is a good idea but they aren’t really invested enough to want any aggro about it. I certainly wouldn’t put anything on Facebook about it but I am seeing more support for the gender critical argument now than previously - and I suspect we are the silent majority.

Verbeena We accept your feelings, but we don't agree with what you want to happen next

You feel like a woman and you are one, biologically

A man may feel like a woman, or even like a baby - like the Green Party paedophile claimed

A person may feel as they wish
BUT if it is not true, they are not entitled to require that others believe them
and certainly not to require that others treat them as if it were true

If that hurts someone's feelings to be denied validation, that is sad
but actual protection of real live women comes first

You're not being clear. I still don't know what you think, because it's so vague.

How? Seriously, how? I literally posted a few posts up what being a woman means to me.
It's a physical and a mental thing. Is it not the right answer, is that why you can't see and it's vague?

I certainly wouldn’t put anything on Facebook about it but I am seeing more support for the gender critical argument now than previously - and I suspect we are the silent majority.

YY. Friends of mine have challenged me about public posts I've made on a couple of occasions, but only a couple of times I've shared things. I've done a few times recently and got a couple of positive comments from female friends. People are starting to feel more empowered to express this.

Perhaps this needs taking down a notch to human level. Would a father be happy about a man Self Id-ing as a "woman" being in the same space as his daughter? Perhaps ask a couple of dads from working class backgrounds, I think we already know the response....

It is possible to treat people with strong religious beliefs with dignity, respect and sensitivity,
while not sharing their religious beliefs,
or obeying the requirements of their religion

It is possible to treat people who are trans with dignity, respect and sensitivity,
while still not believing it is possible to literally change sex
and keeping single spaces for women only

Tolerance should allow for a plurality of beliefs, not enforced belief or conduct.

A physical and mental thing? What does that even mean?

I'm sorry, I'm actually laughing really quite hard. It's meaningless.

I define a woman as an adult human female, of or denoting the class that can bear eggs. That is my definition by A Elk.

What's yours?

seems to have gone into groundhog mode now

I agree with that. But there's a horrid fascination with how I can extricate myself.

Tolerance should allow for a plurality of beliefs, not enforced belief or conduct.

This.

Karen White was on a psychiatric ward with vulnerable locked in women? Fucking horrifying. Shame on those demanding gender identity trumps sex. The public is becoming aware and getting off at this travesty.

Yes. It is horrifying.

Perhaps this needs taking down a notch to human level. Would a father be happy about a man Self Id-ing as a "woman" being in the same space as his daughter? Perhaps ask a couple of dads from working class backgrounds, I think we already know the response....

No-one on here has said there's no concerns about free for all self ID. I think everyone has a problem if it comes down to just self IDing your way in. What we do have a problem is though people saying all transwomen should be excluded, regardless of transitioning and surgery and that's where the problem lies and we keep going round in circles. I want no part of the extremist branch and it seems others don't too.

If a woman is anyone who self-identifies as a woman, then surely a trans-woman is anyone who self-identifies as a trans-woman?

In which case I can identify myself as a trans-woman, despite having born with female genitals (because 'irrelevant' right?).

I can apply for positions set aside for trans-women? And give my opinion publically as that of a trans-woman?

I wonder just how far the self-identity circle could spiral.

we do have a problem is though people saying all transwomen should be excluded, regardless of transitioning and surgery and that's where the problem lies

Oh my goodness, are we getting close to some criteria, here? So is it surgery?

Oh please don't Datum, I could think of some asides for your comment.. too tempting....

What I love about the tide turning is that I recognise several names of MN posters who were vehemently TWAW a couple of years ago who are now GC. I'm not going to out anyone but I know and it's reassuring that people get it.

Speaking as a trans-woman (currently. I'm trans-fluid.), I find it highly offensive to see trans-women being called women. This completely disregards the multitude of unique experiences and challenges that come with a transgender history.

I would like to see people stop erasing our existence by insisting we are women.

If a woman is anyone who self-identifies as a woman, then surely a trans-woman is anyone who self-identifies as a trans-woman?

In which case I can identify myself as a trans-woman, despite having born with female genitals (because 'irrelevant' right?).

I can apply for positions set aside for trans-women? And give my opinion publically as that of a trans-woman?

Yes, of course. It's a meaningless term other than self identification.

If the criteria for entering single sex spaces is a GRC, then FWR is certainly not a hive mind
Opinion is pretty split on that

We all agree they are not women,
but for that tiny number of transwomen, who have gone to such lengths to look like women, some would say it is an acceptable risk

would like to see people stop erasing our existence by insisting we are women.

As a trans woman people should listen to you about your erasure. Otherwise they need to have a long hard look at themselves I think.

Noooo keep going all the way to the courts!

not just about I have a fanny and boobs and have given birth twice through the front bum, but that I feel like a woman mentally too.

Right, okay. So you don't have a coherent stand up premise, it's just a feeling. Which is okay, I get that.

So what I would want to know is what does that mental feeling consist of? It's obviously the knowledge that you're female, but apart from just knowing it, because you are, what else is there?

Because when you start to really think about it, or wonder if you could make a list, it becomes clearer why it can't be an argument that defines women.

So, what are, say, the top three mental thoughts you have, which make you realise you are female. That don't involve biology.

Oh please don't Datum, I could think of some asides for your comment.. too tempting....

What's that even supposed to mean? Is it another attempt to belittle and snide other posters even though they have started to engage?
If so, shows even more so why people just do not bother putting their point across anymore.
As I said before, there is literally no point trying to engage on any meaningful level, as the insults and the twisting immediately start up again.
Then you wonder why it goes round in circles or people don't engage, it's laughable.