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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think the tide is turning with transgenderism

999 replies

abacucat · 11/10/2018 10:05

There have been a flood of articles in mainstream newspapers criticising transgenderism and putting forward the feminist perspective. It is not long ago that no mainstream newspaper would carry these articles. The tide seems to be turning.

OP posts:
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7
BigChocFrenzy · 11/10/2018 23:09

When it comes to making laws about self-ID, politicians must consider the biological facts and the crime statistics for men.
Just like doctors must consider the biological facts when treating patients

Noone should be needlessly cruel, but should be realistic

Ereshkigal · 11/10/2018 23:10

On that point, women to me means adult human female.

That poster thinks the dictionary definition of female says something we are all missing.

VerbeenaBeeks · 11/10/2018 23:10

TRanspeople lie ( they say they are women.) They share the size, smell, sound and body parts of other people who have already abused the women.

And that's where the argument gets circular and never goes anywhere, as for some and I quote "transwomen are lying and they're never women."
Some women say they don't have a blanket you're not one and never will be one of us ban on the spaces.

Pity women that they live their lives in such fear. Always at risk. Always moderating their behaviour
Also, and I know I can probably dab off being accused of NAMALT to my card next, but we should exclude all transwomen from spaces just because some women have been abused by some men?

Ereshkigal · 11/10/2018 23:11

How am I misusing it?

Well, because I clearly didn't do anything of the sort?

Ereshkigal · 11/10/2018 23:12

There are some very novel interpretations of the term "gaslighting" by certain posters.

BigChocFrenzy · 11/10/2018 23:13

The mantra of TWAW and claiming those who disagree are transphobics is imo "gaslighting"
Trying to bully or con us into accepting a biological impossibility

Part of the Stonewall definition of transphobia is not accepting someone's identity
That seriously offends me

Ereshkigal · 11/10/2018 23:14

So Erik. Saying men or transwomen are not men can’t be gas lighting

Erik! Grin literal violence!

Earlywalker · 11/10/2018 23:15

*Gas lighting means trying to get people to believe something that isn’t true

So Erik. Saying men or transwomen are not men can’t be gas lighting*

Did you read what I said? Because I didn’t say that was gaslighting, I said her naive little ‘who suggested that’ post was gaslighting. Because she’s been going on and on about transwomen are not woman, but when I said I can’t imagine why people would want to say that to a trans person she responds with ‘who suggests that’

If your happy to repeat it over and over On forum that probably gets read by transpeople, you need to accept that they are going to read it. If your happy to talk about people in a certain way, you should be happy to accept that what you’ve said will reach them.

Ereshkigal · 11/10/2018 23:15

Part of the Stonewall definition of transphobia is not accepting someone's identity
That seriously offends me

Yeah, they can FOTTFSOFATFOSM with that.

BigChocFrenzy · 11/10/2018 23:16

Verbeena Do you think that single sex spaces are totally unnecessary then ?

If you think they are necessary, do you disagree that transwomen have the same levels of sexual and violent crime as other men ?

VerbeenaBeeks · 11/10/2018 23:16

Oh give over with your gaslighting, you’re not fooling anyone. You are one of the usual ones repeating ‘men Are not women’ you know exactly what that means. I’m not entertaining it.

Absolutely, good to have people calling it out on the main boards more, some very obtuse and faux innocent posters here for those just joining.

Not to people's faces. I keep my beliefs to myself just like I would on religion etc.
Apart from on here hiding behind an anonymous name.

Gaslighting; manipulate (someone) by psychological means into doubting their own sanity. How am I misusing it?
You're not. It's exactly what's happening. There's a couple of examples on this thread. Posters saying you've said something and you have the doubting "did I say that? Maybe I did" moment.
Twisting things to such an extent you start to question yourself.

Binglebong · 11/10/2018 23:16

Earlywalker I don't think anyone here would do that. Hear me out.

We can be kind and sympathetic to individuals while still stopping bad laws that endanger people. Chances are that if I met a new transperson I would go along with it. I would call them by their preferred pronouns, I would not get into debates about the GRA. I certainly wouldn't chant "you are not a man/woman." I do not believe anyone here would be deliberately unkind.

But, and this is a very big but, we cannot make laws based on people's feelings. We know men, as a class, are dangerous to women. We know that transwomen continue yo have male criminal patterns and that transmen raise to male levels. We know that almost half of trans people in prision have been convicted of sexual crimes. We know that male predators are willing to identify as trans in order to access women and children more easily. We know that not all men are dangerous and not all trans people are dangerous.

What we don't know is who is or isn't a danger. We have no way to tell them apart. You will see your friend and think "I know Bill, they're not a danger." But others will not know Bill and not know if they're a danger. Likewise you won't know if Sally is. You don't know Sally - you don't know if they have Gender Disphoria. Or is they are AGP and turned on by forcing women to validate then by being in their space. Or did the used to be Clive the rapist who has spotted an easier way to get close to women and if challenges will be able to truthfully say they signed a piece of paper that means they have a legal right to be there.

You are a woman. You will have received that look. The one that say "I know I'm making you uncomfortable, that in undressing you and that there is nothing you can do about it." You've probably gone into the ladies yo get away from it. Do you want him following you in. Undressing next to you, watching, enjoying your discomfort? He won't do anything that can be reported but there's a good chance you won't go back.

The point is we don't know who is entirely innocent but we do know the numbers have exploded and that a lot of the people now identifying as transwomen are not doing so because they have Gender disphoria. We cannot tell these people apart. And while that is the case we must keep out the danger as best we can, even though that also means keeping out people who don't we to do harm.

Louislovesmud · 11/10/2018 23:17

*MIdgebabe

Gas lighting means trying to get people to believe something that isn’t true*

Um, no it doesn't. It means manipulating a person to question their own sanity and version of reality. To convince them that they have it twisted, that they're going mad and can't trust their own instincts.

Binglebong · 11/10/2018 23:18

Wish to do harm*

I think the rest of the many typos are self explanatory!

BigChocFrenzy · 11/10/2018 23:19

Earlywalker That is a different issue:

Many posters on the politics board keep going on about how shit & evil the Tories are
but would never follow individual Tories around in rl telling them that

However, they aren't going to censor their MN posts just because a lot of Tories probably read that board.

Ereshkigal · 11/10/2018 23:19

If your happy to repeat it over and over On forum that probably gets read by transpeople, you need to accept that they are going to read it

I do. That's too bad. We are allowed to voice these things. You can't change sex. It's a fact. It's different to saying it to someone's face. I have to read people saying TWAW. I find that offensive because I believe it is a falsehood which is damaging women's rights.

VerbeenaBeeks · 11/10/2018 23:19

Um, no it doesn't. It means manipulating a person to question their own sanity and version of reality. To convince them that they have it twisted, that they're going mad and can't trust their own instincts

Yep, this.

UpstartCrow · 11/10/2018 23:19

This thread is a repeat run of another thread. Advanced search can be illuminating.

BigChocFrenzy · 11/10/2018 23:22

I may go along socially with all sorts of delusions, rather than hurt someone's feelings
However, that would stop the minute those delusions started to risk my safety or someone else's

Ereshkigal · 11/10/2018 23:22

It means manipulating a person to question their own sanity and version of reality. To convince them that they have it twisted, that they're going mad and can't trust their own instincts.

And no one here is doing that. That is what domestic abusers do. I couldn't give a fuck what these people think, I'm not interested in controlling them for my personal benefit, I'm just disagreeing with them.

If you want to look at twisting things though, look more to some of the posters on your side of the argument.

BigChocFrenzy · 11/10/2018 23:24

To clarify, to try to understand the anger here:

  1. Are some posters saying we should stop posting that transwomen are not women, just in case transwomen read these threads and feel hurt ?

  2. Do you consider that posting online TWAW is transphobic ?

Ereshkigal · 11/10/2018 23:24

This thread is a repeat run of another thread. Advanced search can be illuminating.

Yes, it's like Groundhog Day. I got sucked in on two previous occasions recently but there are posters here who have no interest in having a reasoned discussion, they just want to fling shit around. Enough.

BigChocFrenzy · 11/10/2018 23:25

oops
2) that TW are not women is transphobic ?

Louislovesmud · 11/10/2018 23:26

@Ereshkigal bore off with "your side of the argument". You have no idea what my thoughts on this are.

What I don't like, regardless of context, is stooping to weird phrases that sound like threats, insulting intelligence instead of sticking to valid counterarguments and mis-using terms like "gaslighting" because it makes it so much harder for victims to have their experiences heard and accepted

VerbeenaBeeks · 11/10/2018 23:27

This thread is a repeat run of another thread. Advanced search can be illuminating

If to me, yep, I was on another one a few days ago that popped up in AIBU asking if was unreasonable to want to hide a board. Didn't even have to say what board wanted hiding in the OP without the "well if you want to hide feminism and not care about women then the rest of us will have get you through and carry you to be able to get the vote" type posts to spring up.

Swipe left for the next trending thread