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Original poster

To think the tide is turning with transgenderism

999 replies

abacucat · 11/10/2018 10:05

There have been a flood of articles in mainstream newspapers criticising transgenderism and putting forward the feminist perspective. It is not long ago that no mainstream newspaper would carry these articles. The tide seems to be turning.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Louislovesmud · 11/10/2018 22:38

*Surely you are intelligent enough to see the difference?

We know, from the three threads recently that she's made this conflation on, that she doesn't quite at all grasp the difference between not adhering to her non universal belief system and being "transphobic"*

Are we back to the insults about intelligence again? Is it not possible to be able to talk about this without getting personal?

Louislovesmud · 11/10/2018 22:39

Oh, and if by "bottom surgery" we were talking about gender reassignment surgery then Caitlyn Jenner has had it done. At least a year ago

MIdgebabe · 11/10/2018 22:40

This reply has been deleted

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Ereshkigal · 11/10/2018 22:40

Are we back to the insults about intelligence again? Is it not possible to be able to talk about this without getting personal?

Given that she's been fairly personal herself, I doubt it.

VerbeenaBeeks · 11/10/2018 22:40

Are we back to the insults about intelligence again? Is it not possible to be able to talk about this without getting personal?

Seems not!

Oh, and if by "bottom surgery" we were talking about gender reassignment surgery then Caitlyn Jenner has had it done. At least a year ago
Thanks, thought she had.

Datun · 11/10/2018 22:42

I didn't see someone say I have a problem with all transwomen.
.

I have a problem with the idea that womanhood is Something you can take on or off.

I understand that presenting as female helps some men with their gender dysphoria. I dispute that it does not underpin gender stereotypes, though.

VerbeenaBeeks · 11/10/2018 22:44

I didn't see someone say I have a problem with all transwomen.

You must have missed it then - it was one of the usual cheerleaders and it's what stopped me and thought WTF even though I started off on the boards concerned about self ID and made me start reading into both "sides."

BigChocFrenzy · 11/10/2018 22:45

Those women of certain religions - obviously Muslims - would be excluded from much of society if transwomen are allowed into single sex womens' spaces
(Muslim and Orthodox Jewish men might be excluded from unisex facilities)

Institutions who have no single sex loos for women are institutionally racist

On another forum - iirc it was the Telegraph online - I read posts from men saying they would identify as women to go into their gym changing room,
because they were angry that Muslims were joining and wanted to exclude them

It is a pretty obvious tactic for Islamophobes
and once the terms of self-ID become widely understood among the public, I would expect this to rocket.
Probably be in the EDL handbook

Datun · 11/10/2018 22:45

What was the 'problem'? Specifically.

BigChocFrenzy · 11/10/2018 22:47

Is it "having a problem with all transwomen" if we say they are still men ?

MIdgebabe · 11/10/2018 22:47

Bigcjoc, that’s awful

Datun · 11/10/2018 22:48

Choc - there are so many ways that the desegregation of sex can be manipulated and exploited. It's going mad.

Ereshkigal · 11/10/2018 22:50

On another forum - iirc it was the Telegraph online - I read posts from men saying they would identify as women to go into their gym changing room,
because they were angry that Muslims were joining and wanted to exclude them

That's awful.

7Days · 11/10/2018 22:50

but the whole 'debate ' is personal. Emotional, subjective, about trying to be kind to vulnerable people.
But when discussing public policy, you have to be rational as well, and weigh up competing harms and you have to be a bit dispassionate.
Bodies matter. Plus they are material, easily observable, and tend to define your life and lead you down one pathos another. . They are material, easily observable correlations with particular patterns of behaviour.
An individual's feelings, or a group's feelings should not be the basis of law. Of course highly considered. But facts must come first

VickyEadie · 11/10/2018 22:51

I don't want anyone who was born with a penis in my safe spaces, especially the ones where people get their genitals out. I include all males in my family in that.

Earlywalker · 11/10/2018 22:55

I understand that presenting as female helps some men with their gender dysphoria. I dispute that it does not underpin gender stereotypes, though

I think it’s more than that though. For example my best friend from childhood is trans. Growing up you wouldn’t notice the difference just a normal ‘Tom boy’ then puberty started, he had large breasts and from the age of 13 he would try wrapping toilet paper over them. He self harmed with a razor blade up his vagina, on his breasts. He tried to kill himself when he came out as trans and his dad told him he would never be a man. He has been living as a man for over 10 years now (had full surgery) still looks the same, doesn’t dress any differently, same short hair he’s had since secondary school, he still has the same girlfriend he had when he was a woman. Although has facial hair now and obviously no breasts and a penis. He still acts the same way he has for the last 20 years I’ve known him.

There is no stereotype he has lived up too, there is a name change and a smile and sense of belonging that wasn’t there before.

I can’t see how anyone could get joy out of repeating to him ‘you are not a man, repeat after me, you are not a man’ there’s just no need for it.

I’m not excusing there’s bad people that do it for their own personal gain, there is in all parts of life. I just thought I’d share my feelings on the matter.

Ereshkigal · 11/10/2018 22:58

can’t see how anyone could get joy out of repeating to him ‘you are not a man, repeat after me, you are not a man’ there’s just no need for it.

Who has suggested doing that?

BigChocFrenzy · 11/10/2018 22:59

I admit that my concern for the implications for Muslims is because I am half-Arab.

My late mum's family is Christian, but 2 have married Muslims
What is the issue is that none of them, Christian or Muslim, would go into places with unisex loos or changing rooms.
It's not just religion; it's also culture and the UK has other cultures than just the woke trans one.

I am the black sheep of the family: agnostic and even naturist
However, I go only to properly supervised naturist pools and saunas, with lots of people around too.
I wouldn't go even to a unisex loo, where I could be alone & vulnerable in a fairly enclosed space with a random bloke

Earlywalker · 11/10/2018 23:00

Who has suggested doing that?

Oh give over with your gaslighting, you’re not fooling anyone. You are one of the usual ones repeating ‘men Are not women’ you know exactly what that means. I’m not entertaining it.

UpstartCrow · 11/10/2018 23:03

Its been explained to you several times, you are misusing the term 'gaslighting'.

MIdgebabe · 11/10/2018 23:04

Isn’t it funny how when we need to talk about class based injustice the conversation is focussed on “ this guy is ok”

I don’t care that some transpeople appear to be nice people getting on with their lives because that does not change the fact that transwomen are from a abuse perspective no different to men. There are many good men also. It’s Also an irrelevance . Sex rights are there not for our amusement or to do harm to men and transwomen . They are there to protect women.

When abuse by transwomen to women is no different to women’s on woman then the rules can be changed

BigChocFrenzy · 11/10/2018 23:06

There is a big difference between repeating on an online forum, or in a discussion with MPs, that
transwomen are men
& transmen are women

and seeking out such people and telling them personally all the time

MIdgebabe · 11/10/2018 23:07

Gas lighting means trying to get people to believe something that isn’t true

So Erik. Saying men or transwomen are not men can’t be gas lighting

Saying transwomen are women is gas lighting, unless you have some other meaning to the word women which you refuse to share with us

On that point, women to me means adult human female.

Ereshkigal · 11/10/2018 23:09

Oh give over with your gaslighting, you’re not fooling anyone. You are one of the usual ones repeating ‘men Are not women’ you know exactly what that means. I’m not entertaining it.

Not to people's faces. I keep my beliefs to myself just like I would on religion etc.

Earlywalker · 11/10/2018 23:09

Gaslighting; manipulate (someone) by psychological means into doubting their own sanity.

How am I misusing it?

I did not use my friend as an example to a statement that portrayed ALL trans people in a way that underpins gender stereotypes, if you read what I was responding too. (hint; it’s in bold above my text) It would be like someone saying ‘all dogs bite’ and me using an example of my dog that does not bite.