To think the tide is turning with transgenderism

[abacucat]

There have been a flood of articles in mainstream newspapers criticising transgenderism and putting forward the feminist perspective. It is not long ago that no mainstream newspaper would carry these articles. The tide seems to be turning.

Cross posted with EarlyWalker there and agree entirely.
Telling how it didn't get picked up on either, just from a prolific poster "but that's what happening."
It gets picked up and called out more on here, doesn't so much in there as there's not so many dissenting voices as they've given up.

Will re-word to say doesn't accept transwomen as women then.

No, I don't accept transwomen as women. Because they are not women. Believing that TWAW is just that, a belief. That not everyone shares.

As the gay cake thing illustrated earlier this week, it is part of my human rights not to be forced to believe something I don't believe. Trans rights don't trump that.

I know that’s an extreme example but when we start classing a huge group of people as one, we get onto dangerous territory

No one does that. Everybody knows that you have men with gender dysphoria, a rare and crippling illness. You have autogynephiles, men who get turned on by presenting as female. And you have chancers, misogynists and predators. As well as the cross dressers and transvestites.

Coupled with that you've just got men who see a wonderful opportunity to dominate and intimidate women.

No one, absolutely no one, thinks they are all the same.

But none of them are women.

This is why women say they are talking about women's rights, and women's boundaries, nothing to do with trans people, really. You can't hold 15 different cohorts in your hand and work out the impact, or not, on each individual boundary of every woman.

If the problem that people have is that they think women are conflating predators with transwomen, they're not. It's just that they're not saying that it doesn't exist.

Men with AGP will be the most vociferous and demanding of transwomen. And they should be dismissed out of hand. How do you expect women to endlessly make all these different distinctions? When it's completely irrelevant. No man is a woman.

It's not personal.

Calling it hate mongering shit makes you look ridiculous. I've lost all patience with you

Fine, I don't care if it does. Rather be made to look ridiculous than to be validating hate posts about entire groups with "but that's what's happening."

As the gay cake thing illustrated earlier this week, it is part of my human rights not to be forced to believe something I don't believe. Trans rights don't trump that.

OK, that's up to you. You're entitled to your beliefs. Where do you suppose transwomen should go then? In the mens? Even ones that you'd presumably deem "pass" as they've had some surgery?
Where do they go?

VerbeenaBeeks

You may have missed it by accident, or deliberately, but that poster is not schooled in the language of feminism, nor transgenderism. They were saying it through a relatively uninformed eye.

I can see that. Maybe you couldn't.

I knew exactly what they meant, and didn't need to take them literally.

No one does that

A post on here just has. Maybe you just refuse to see it? As you said it's what's literally happening out in the public domain. You can't see what's said even when it's under your nose.
It was tarring an entire group.

It's not women's responsibility to find alternative places for men who don't want to share facilities with other men.

Where do they go?

I don't know. I think the best solution would be a third space, but I have literally never seen anyone campaigning for that. And as Vicky says, it's not the responsibility of women to find somewhere for men who don't want to share facilities with other men.

Maybe that is not 'kind' enough for you, but for me, women's rights to a space free of male bodied people is paramount.

You may have missed it by accident, or deliberately, but that poster is not schooled in the language of feminism, nor transgenderism. They were saying it through a relatively uninformed eye.

I saw they weren't schooled in the language of feminism or transgenderism, and it was an outsider view. Thanks for the patronising tone though.
I can see that. Maybe you couldn't
I also saw something quite telling - instead of saying it's wrong to generalise, you said "but that's what's happening out in the public domain" - automatically stoking their fears.
How is that anything but not a slippery slope to go down?

Let’s make it simple

Not all Men are bad, but enough are bad that it’s is perfectly legal for women to separate from men in some situations

We are allowed to treat men as a group in some situations

Men understand this and the good ones agree that it helps protect women and that women should Be safe from abuse

Not all transwomen are bad, but their abuse of women is at least as high as that of men towards women.

Therefore we suggest that it is legal for us to treat all transwomen as a group in some situations and expect that we can separate form this group in those situations

The reasons when and why we can treat men as a group is exactly the same as the reason when and why we treat transwomen as a group

You are asking us not to treat transwomen as a group because....transwomen say they are ok.....even though we know some are lying....and we know that most violence against women is committed by people who say that we can trust them

So out of the group of men, those most likely to cause us harm are those that say trust us

And you expect us to believe that transwomen are different? Despite no evidence ?

How thick do you think we are exactly?

If by that you mean people are starting to try not to be transphobic arses then yes and good.

It's not women's responsibility to find alternative places for men who don't want to share facilities with other men.

For starters, calling transwomen men is part of the problem. Who said it was just women’s responsibility to do this? We all share this earth, we are not here as the ‘us’ and the ‘them’ we should all work together for a happy existence. Not shrug it off as ‘not my problem’ I’m not disabled and I’ve always worked, is it not my problem to pay my taxes to help those who can’t? This attitude is damaging our species.

Transwomen are a small subset of men

Men commit 98% or the sexual assaults
So, society has long chosen to make some facilities where women are particularly vulnerable into single sex ones
Therefore I don't accept that transwomen be allowed into those facilities, at least not without a GRC

• some other feminists would say no TWs at all should be allowed in

The debate about whether we should totally abolish single sex facilities is a different one
imo, there is no justification for this, until the problem of toxic male violence has been solved, so that their criome rate is not so staggeringly high

If self-ID is allowed, abolishing all single sex apaces might actually be safer for women, since at least all the decent men would be around too, for protection

I would campaign for a mandatory 4th space in all applicable buildings, so that transwomen can go there.
In the interim, I am not prepared to accept that any random bloke can self-ID into the women's facilities

In practice, as before, transwomen who make a halfway decent attempt at looking like women,
who don't expose themselves, masturbate etc,
would use the womens' facilities without anyone objecting

VerbeenaBeeks

No. I said that when women talk about transgenderism they can't be expected to split their opinion over 15 different cohorts. Can they now? Don't be silly.

You are trying to find out at what point women's boundaries can be, let's call it, deconstructed.

Is it surgery? Is it legality? Is it that they look cute?

You know, full well, none of this has any kind of practical application. Quite apart from the sexist notion that womanhood is dependent upon surgery or looks.

It's not my job to find a solution for men who I am refusing entry to my space.

But if I must, a third space is a good solution. Or, an even better one, would be to educate men in the art of acceptance. Stop them being homophobic over other men who don't conform.

VerbeenaBeeks

If you go to any trans forum, you will find overwhelming amounts of sweeping generalizations about "ugly terfs who just hate men" and "bigoted women who are afraid of penises in their shower cubical for no good reason".

VerbeenaBeeks, how much time do you spend on those boards, telling those people to be nice?

I don't know. I think the best solution would be a third space, but I have literally never seen anyone campaigning for that. And as Vicky says, it's not the responsibility of women to find somewhere for men who don't want to share facilities with other men.Maybe that is not 'kind' enough for you, but for me, women's rights to a space free of male bodied people is paramount.

If they're not male bodied anymore though, and had surgery, surely they'd "pass" with you?
The introduction of a third space for them in my opinion is kind of othering.

For starters, calling transwomen men is part of the problem. Who said it was just women’s responsibility to do this? We all share this earth, we are not here as the ‘us’ and the ‘them’ we should all work together for a happy existence. Not shrug it off as ‘not my problem’ I’m not disabled and I’ve always worked, is it not my problem to pay my taxes to help those who can’t? This attitude is damaging our species.

The problem is that women are always expected to solve the problems aren't they? Of course its women's responsibility if it's women who are being expected to let anyone who declares they are a woman into their space. It's not men's responsibility is it?

What is wrong with campaigning for a third space?

re Muslims:

As soon as men / boys are allowed into formerly single sex spaces reserved for women / girls,
then many Muslim women and girls are automatIcally excluded from whole swathes of our society

No. I said that when women talk about transgenderism they can't be expected to split their opinion over 15 different cohorts. Can they now? Don't be silly.

Did you heck. Don't be silly? Again,cheers for the patronising.

What's " not male bodied?" And how does it relate to self id? Do men's bodies magically become XX bodies when they say they're women? Caitlyn Jenner is still well over 6ft...

No. I said that when women talk about transgenderism they can't be expected to split their opinion over 15 different cohorts. Can they now? Don't be silly.

Did you heck. Don't be silly? Again,cheers for the patronising.

I wouldn't be patronising if you would take more care reading. This is what I said.

This is why women say they are talking about women's rights, and women's boundaries, nothing to do with trans people, really. You can't hold 15 different cohorts in your hand and work out the impact, or not, on each individual boundary of every woman.

If they're not male bodied anymore though, and had surgery, surely they'd "pass" with you?

If you are male but have had surgery, you are still male bodied. If you are born male you can never become 'not male bodied anymore'. Just putting that there as a reality check.

As for your point, the number of transwomen you are referring to there is tiny and traditionally always were welcome into women's spaces as a courtesy. Because they weren't demanding anything else.

The vast majority of transwomen now retain their penis and increasingly don't think they need to undertake any sort of meaningful 'transition' in order to access women's spaces, hence the push for self id.

One solution is to make all mens' facilities unisex, but keep single sex facilities for women who prefer these, or whose religion requires this

Men would not have their safety compromised by unisex facilities, whereas women would.

Men might also suffer embarassment, but since transwomen are a subset of men, it seems reasonable that it should be who suffer any inconvenience.