In my understanding of the trans issue.

[Randomusername01]

I'm trying to work out if I'm being bigoted or not. I agree with some of the trans posts I see here but others, whilst maybe not being anti trans by mn standards definitely come across as mean and on the verge of being anti trans imo. Anyway I digress. Am I right in thinking that gender is just a feeling, constructed partly by society and partly by individual innateness. So I guess I do agree that people can self I'd their gender along whatever myriad there is. But this is separate from anatomical sex, which bar a minority of cases either fall under male with penis and female with a vagina. So you could perhaps identify with being female but anatomically you would be male? So is the problem lies in how society segregates things such as prisons, sports, changing rooms etc. By gender or otherwise?

You are not wrong that sex and gender are separate things.

Sex is your biological characteristics - your chromosomes, sex organs, hormones etc. Most people have either male or female sex characteristics, with some exceptions (for example, intersex people).

Gender is about whether you identify as male or female, or neither, or somewhere in between, or in a fluid way. It is the personal sense of one’s own gender, a deeply held and innate sense. For the majority of people this corresponds with their sex. For others, it doesn’t.

Gender and sex aren’t the same thing, which is why many people support the belief that trans men are men, and trans women are women. It’s because we accept that you don’t have to have female sex characteristics to be a woman, or male sex characteristics to be a man, because while sex is biological, gender isn’t.

Segregating by sex (for things like sport and prisons) rather than gender has pros and cons. The pros are that we are familiar with it, it is largely staightforward provided you ignore the exceptions, there is a lot of historical context behind it.

The cons are that it ignores intersex people, or forces them into a binary which isn’t reflective of their experience, and it is exclusionary and often dangerous to trans people. A trans woman in a male prison will face a level of threat that isn’t acceptable. A trans person could be unfairly advantaged or disadvantaged in a sporting event. These are just two examples.

There are cons to segregating by gender too - some people fear that men will take advantage of this to invade women’s spaces. These fears aren’t unfounded, but there are usually solutions which can be found while still accepting the right of trans people to live completely as the gender they are, rather than the sex.

There are also people who think that sex is the most important characteristic because they consider women to have been historically oppressed on the basis of their sex characteristics (for example, comparative physical weakness, childbirth etc).

While I understand where these concerns come from, I don’t consider there to be any factual basis behind them. Trans women face the same kind of oppression as non-trans women. Men who are seen as being ‘feminine’ face oppression. This oppression is based on stereotypes about and prejudices towards gender, not sex.

Yeah, AuntBeastie has given a really fair overview there in my opinion. Nothing to add to that except my praise for Aunt.

@AuntBeastie

That’s interesting. I’m not saying gender non-conforming men don’t suffer in a patriarchal society. But don’t you think the answer to that is to change attitudes to gender roles, rather than give blanket access to single sex spaces to them? It doesn’t seem like an actual solution that works for all parties.

Gender isn't a feeling it's a fucking superstructure of stereotypes that are placed on us by society as a result of our biological sex.

If some men are more comfortable with the female stereotype, know yourselves out, afaik. But you're not women, same as someone who was bright up with female stereotypes. You're trans women. Sui generis.

knock yourselves out

Aunt I agree with you on most of what you said apart from trans women are just as oppressed as women. Girl Guides, Karen White? Jacinta? If you aren't familiar with these cases I'm happy to provide you the information.
I would just like my own toilets, a guaranteed single sex dorm at the YHA and to know who my daughter is sharing a room with on guide camp.
Also. You can't change sex. You can't.

Robotic you know gender and gender identity are different things, right? It's confusing because we sometimes refer to gender identity as a person's "gender", but that's not the same thing as what you're describing.

Excellent summing up AuntBeastie. I completely agree with everything that you've said there.

Trans women face the same kind of oppression as non-trans women.

Tell that to the refugee woman who was raped, got pregnant due to lack of control over own fertility, pimped out by her partner and left destitute as a single mother. Suffering? Sure. Same? No.

I often wonder why can't the trans women be broadening the band width of manhood by showing that not all men conform to traditional masculine stereotypes? Instead, they tell women that they have more right to be women than them. They should be proud to be feminine men that like to use women's pronouns and wear whatever they feel like. Trans women often only appropriate the very extremes of female stereotyping.

They should be fighting for the right to present in whatever way they wish without being bound by traditional gender stereotyping. They should not fight to replace women.

gender identity

So am I a woman because I identify as one? I don't remember being given a choice in the matter.

There are also people who think that sex is the most important characteristic because they consider women to have been historically oppressed on the basis of their sex

I think this is a fundamental misunderstanding of the feminist viewpoint.

I don't think those who have concerns about transfer issues are generally saying that sex is the most important characteristic. Personally I have dozens of characteristics to much identity and woman is probably around 7th. However, when a facility, service or opportunity has been set aside for women then in the vast majority of cases the reasons for that are to do with biological sex not gender identity.

Women's spaces, facilities, services and opportunities are not a consolation prize to make up for being oppressed, which should therefore be opened up to any other oppressed groups.

In sociological perspectives there's a weird hierarchy.
There's fairly dualistic theorists eg Nancy Fraser who would see sex as a class and gender constructed of cultural stereotypes on top of sex.
Then more postmodern theorists such as Judith butler who think they're more sophisticated and therefore better for trying to say there's myriad categories and ways of looking at things.

Sigh.

Stevi Jackson is quite a good modern theorist who says 'some of the theoretical perspectives which have gained currency over the last two decades gave had the effect of obliterating earlier insights into sexuality' and I would extend that to gender which I see as an institution rather than an individual identity.

Great post Beastie.

It's such a shame that there is an 'oppression olympics' mindset present sometimes.

I find it heartening that gender is being so thoroughly questioned. Surely if gender is bollocks, we shouldn't blame our problems on men, but the patriachy. If it's bollocks, then why does it matter what sex someone technically is? Slowly, I can see gender being dismantled. Unisex facilities for all!

I don’t see trans women as gender non-conforming men - they are women, and should have access to women’s spaces. But I agree we could do with a lot less stereotyping / assuming / prejudice / etc.

They are transwomen. A woman is an adult human female. There’s a clear and important distinction. Transwomen are not women.

they are women

But... they're not.

I don’t see trans women as gender non-conforming men - they are women, and should have access to women’s spaces

But they are not women, they are men who do not conform to traditional male gender stereotypes. I do not conform to traditional female gender roles. I am still a woman though because my reproductive organs and DNA make me an adult human female - therefore a woman . They can call themselves transwomen and I would be polite and call them by their preferred name and pronoun. This does not make them women. Biological sex cannot be changed

I absolutely agree Beastie that transwomen should have access to women's spaces. I just think in an ideal world Id just have unisex spaces everywhere. I see it like 'I'm female, that's fine. I'm a woman, I guess. I'm just questioning what gender means to me, and if it means anything. In the meantime, I want to make sure TW feel supported, and are allowed into whichever spaces they need.

@how do they have the same needs as women? Genuine question. Aside from the safety aspect. How else are they similar?

AuntBeastie how dare you drag intersex into this debate? How dare you? It has nothing, nothing to do with it and you are being deeply disengenuous in implying it does. It’s also worth nothing that people with intersex conditions have said repeatedly that they do not want their conditions dragged into the trans debate. So let’s start off with respecting that.

It is not possible to change sex. Sex is a protected characteristic in law (gender and gender identity are not, if you have a GRC that is protected).

Certain spaces are segregated by sex for reasons of privacy, dignity and safety. Toilets, changing rooms, refuges, prisons. Sex, not gender. Other things are reserved for women because of under representation. Gender, aka feelings, are not relevant.

I’m going to say this only once because I’m getting to the end of my tether with this. Anyone who thinks that TWAWis complicit in the assault of the 4 women attacked by Karen White, and is a vile misogynist.

Woman = adult human female

Trans identifying men are men. And I personally doubt if many of them even have body dysmorphia.

while sex is biological, gender isn’t.
it (gender) is the personal sense of one’s own gender, a deeply held and innate sense

Sex has characteristics defined by biology -
who has defined what characterises each gender?

What are the characteristics of woman?
What are the characteristics of man?
....with regards to gender?