In my understanding of the trans issue.

[Randomusername01]

I'm trying to work out if I'm being bigoted or not. I agree with some of the trans posts I see here but others, whilst maybe not being anti trans by mn standards definitely come across as mean and on the verge of being anti trans imo. Anyway I digress. Am I right in thinking that gender is just a feeling, constructed partly by society and partly by individual innateness. So I guess I do agree that people can self I'd their gender along whatever myriad there is. But this is separate from anatomical sex, which bar a minority of cases either fall under male with penis and female with a vagina. So you could perhaps identify with being female but anatomically you would be male? So is the problem lies in how society segregates things such as prisons, sports, changing rooms etc. By gender or otherwise?

But the only ideology I have ever heard from transgender support groups is like girl stuff=girl and like boy stuff=boy. Which is, of course, regressive sexist nonsense.

What I've heard from transgender support groups is that if your child is "persistent, insistent and consistent" about their being the wrong gender, then that is the biggest factor of all.

Very little at all about Barbie or pink to be honest.

I mean yeah, if you were telling me grown men might pretend to be trans in order to get an advantage I might see your point, but that wouldn't work because they'd have to lower their testosterone etc.
caligula if you look at IOC rules on this they currently state transwomen has to have testosterone level less than 10 - which is within the normal range for men
Testosterone has its most important effects during male puberty with regards to body shape - so lowering it after puberty has only minimal effect. It doesn’t make their heart and lungs smaller, their limbs shorter, change their fast twitch muscle fibres to slow etc, etc. It doesn’t remove they male entitlement/ psychology
ANYONE who thinks it’s ok for transwomen to compete as women either doesn’t give a shit about sport, or women or both!

Consider then, the possible consequences for each alternative.

Those with penises continue to be excluded from women’s spaces. Some people with penises might be offended by what they feel that implies. But nobody has a right to not be offended.

Those with penises are included in women’s spaces if they (say they) feel like women. Best case scenario is that you feel uncomfortable. Worst case, genuine harm might befall you. It may not, but the reality is that this change increases risk to women.

So (in my opinion) we are being asked to put ourselves (and more vulnerable females) at increased risk, just because some men might be offended.

For me it makes no sense. I feel if we are to replace sex segregation with “gender” segregation, then it should be demonstrated FIRST that this will not increase the risk for women.

This is Duncan Smart/Jacinta Brooks, a violent male who identifies as a trans woman, was convicted of three counts of inciting a child to engage in sexual activity and three of possessing indecent images at Southampton Crown Court in 2018 and jailed for 11 years.

Brooks, 41, has two prior convictions for offences against children and had been released from prison two years previously, having served almost 13 years in prison for sexual offences against a young girl in 2003.

The most recent conviction for serious sexual offending against children involved Brooks posing as a teenage boy and knowingly targeting a 12-year-old girl online.

Judge Nicholas Rowland branded Brooks a ‘danger to children’ after hearing the child suffered such severe trauma from the abuse she was forced to leave school.
transcrimeuk.com/2018/10/02/duncan-smart-jacinta-brooks/

I don't want to even breathe the same air as Jacinta, never mind share changing rooms. I certainly don't think women prisoners should be forced to be locked up with Jacinta

@gingerrigered I also looked at and wrote OVC.gov. Or is that the website you’re saying is partisan/unreliable?

There are also people who think that sex is the most important characteristic because they consider women to have been historically oppressed on the basis of their sex characteristics (for example, comparative physical weakness, childbirth etc).

While I understand where these concerns come from, I don’t consider there to be any factual basis behind them. Trans women face the same kind of oppression as non-trans women. Men who are seen as being ‘feminine’ face oppression. This oppression is based on stereotypes about and prejudices towards gender, not sex.

Is this a parody post? You don't think women experience sex based oppression?

I'm also yet to see any proof that transwomen experience assaults and sexual violence at a higher rate than women.

CaligulaBlushed

Can you link to something that says that. Because I’ve read all the Mermaids guideance and Allsorts school packs and they seem very much to be suggesting that liking of girl stuff = girl. Even if a kid persistently likes those things it does not make them a girl, or even not a girl.

How persistent does a 4 year old have to be? If you come from a household that says pink=girl and that you cannot have pink unless you are girl. Then you’re probably going to put it together and think ‘I’m a girl’.

I would like to see how long a child persisteted when told that they could wear whatever they liked and do whatever they liked no matter what their sex. Because ‘social transition’ shouldn’t be a thing. People should just perform gender however they want. A four year old should wear whatever they please and call themselves whatever they like. Social transition wouldn’t be necessary in a society where anyone can perform their gender however they want to.

Kolo ovc.org doeant give stats relating to transpeople, that I can see at least.

The figures from there, unsuprisingly, show the majority is females are raped by males.

As we all knew, anyway.

But as were discussing self ID in the UK maybe you could have a look at some of the rape cases involving transwomen, especially those transwomen sexually assaulting women in female prisons, and tell us why transwomen should be in female spaces.

Yes MissSusan! ‘Performing gender’ shouldn’t even be a thing. Just ‘people being themselves whatever sex they are’.

Those with penises are included in women’s spaces if they (say they) feel like women. Best case scenario is that you feel uncomfortable. Worst case, genuine harm might befall you. It may not, but the reality is that this change increases risk to women.

Why isn't the best case scenerio that nobody is uncomfortable. That we teach 'bodies are just bodies' and that 'consent is paramount'. That we recognise that our expectation of male bodied people to be violent creates a self fulfilling prophecy?

Your best case scenario is that women are expected to be ashamed, embarrassed and afraid around bodies. I'm not.

@kolo sorry not fuck off to you personally and I'm sorry if I offended you. It was more of a fuck off to a world that thinks it is any more dangerous to be a transgender woman than a woman.

I, like I suspect every other person on this board, am happy for people to do whatever they like as long as they are not upsetting someone else.

It is upsetting to see a penis in a female changing area. It is upsetting to have male hands touching your genitals after a sexual assault, even if they identify as women. It is upsetting to see a 6ft 4 bloke in a wig in a women's refuge. It is upsetting to be told you should suck a "womans" dick even though you are a lesbian. It is upsetting to have hundreds of years of women's rights thrown away because again women are wrong.

Upsetting is putting it lightly

Dommina

How does that happen, then? And how long will it take to teach all boys and all men not to be rapey?

And can we suspend self I'd until you've achieved that? Because otherwise, Jacinta Brooks and friends are thrilled to hear that's your strategy.

That we recognise that our expectation of male bodied people to be violent creates a self fulfilling prophecy?

And in the meantime, given that I cannot in one fell swoop resolve society's expectations which MIGHT in part create a self-fulfilling prophecy, what do I do tomorrow at the gym. Or next week in the shelter. Or next month on the female MH ward. Or next year in prison.

It's great that you're so body confident. Most of aren't.

It's great that you recognise Male violence often has its roots in society's perceptions of men. But as an individual living my life now, there's fuck all I can do to address that such that it's no longer an issue tomorrow.

Dommina ok, you crack on with that, cure male violence, and the second thats done we can see about unisex spaces.

In the meantime, Pink News is promoting a fabulous and inspiring new book for children.

Jackie doesnt like fairies, Jackie like bugs.

So must be Jack.

Its sick that people defend this.
Jackie is shown as a small child.

Should she have to be sterilised, medicated for life and lose an arm to have a pathetic replica of male genitalia, as she didnt like fairies?

Is this really what you believe?

Also Dommina are you ok sharing a locked prison cell with the man who raped you?

No?

But you expect other womwn too.
You expect my me, us, my daughter, all of our daughters, to share a changing room with him.

How do you defend that?

@dominna I'm not sure how I'd ever manage to not feel uncomfortable naked in front of a strange man/transwoman. Maybe if rape/sexual assault was unheard of and I was conditioned from birth, but neither of these things are true/possible so please enlighten me.

Why isn't the best case scenerio that nobody is uncomfortable. That we teach 'bodies are just bodies' and that 'consent is paramount'. That we recognise that our expectation of male bodied people to be violent creates a self fulfilling prophecy?

I don’t believe women ignoring statistics and pretending they believe nothing will happen will work.

And my true “best case scenario” is that sex segregation will continue until society has changed to a position where women are truly as safe with men in any given situation as they are with women.

Your best case scenario is that women are expected to be ashamed, embarrassed and afraid around bodies. I'm not.

Do not put words in my mouth. @Randomusername01 stated she was uncomfortable in the specific situation where she was expected to undress (thus making herself vulnerable) in the presence of a person with a penis. That is not remotely the same as being ashamed or embarrassed “around bodies”.

And being wary is logical as the risk of sexual assault is increased in mixed sex spaces.

OP You are right in thinking gender is a feeling, sex is a biological fact.
Gender can mean any way you choose to identify sexually, you can identify your gender as a man or woman, this does not change your sex. You are not actually a biological woman if you are a man who identifies as a woman. Personally I don’t like the whole idea of gender identification, it causes confusion to so many issues within sex identification.
Women are historically discriminated against because they are biologically women no matter how they identify.

Oh wow. OK Ill try.

Vicky - Personally, I think we make it happen through education, mutual respect and importantly, not demonising people. By understanding the motivations of those around us and learning about their experiences. Will it happen overnight? No. But luckily, people are more and more understanding and empathetic. Young people are increasingly confident in sharing spaces, and gender is increasingly becoming broader. It is no longer as acceptable to assume things of people based in their sex.

As for, 'I'm just one person, I can't change anything'. Pish. Be the change you want to see in the world. I take precautions, but not against men. Against disrespectful and dangerous people.

Hypolyta - Actually an increasing number of trans* and gender questioning people do not take medical treatment. Jack would not be able to forgo his arm and mould a penis until he is an adult. Until then he's just questioning his gender.

Also Hippolyta of course I would not be comfortable sharing a prison cell with him. Should he transition, I would want him (or her) to be placed in similar accommodation to other sex offenders and be under watch. If that's in a female prison then so be it. Just like I would expect risky female bodied prisoners to be placed in appropriate accommodation. Any risks come from inappropriate and inadequate safeguarding. I understand and recognise that prison is a trickier one to untangle though.

Of course, I know it might be difficult for some people to understand. I fight hard every day to challenge the gender ideals I've been taught. I was uncomfortable when I first saw a trans person in the 'women's' changing room. After I spoke to them though, that fear alliviated. (sp?)

How can I possibly challenge anyone who believes in the female brain, if I perpetuate stereotypes about the male brain?

Dommina no one is imprisoned for life for rape. Most rapists do not serve a prison sentence.

Nor do womens prisons have areas for sex offenders. They arent needed. Unless someone was stupid enough to believe male sex offenders are women, of course.

So should your rapist choose to say he is a woman, is it ok for him to share a changing space with us and our daughters?

97% of sex offenders are male.
What percentage of those should we allow in female spaces?

@MirriVan you've put into words what I have been struggling for ages to conceptualise. That gender is a set of stereotypes and that trans people want us to disband what it means to biologically be woman and make being 'feminine' the identifier, but then want to be women.... it's a paradox

kolo, you didn’t link to a specific page in OVC, so it’s hard to know what you’re looking at. The pages I could find were very careful not to quote specific numbers and carefully used language like ‘may be’ or ‘up to’. The figures I think you might be referring to is a very limited survey of trans people in Virginia which have the highest figure of any study. But as it’s a limited study with questionable methodology.

OVC is also a victims of crime advocacy service and doesn’t sell itself as a source of accurate figures. A department with that remit will, in it’s own interests, be selective with the information it presents, in particular with a tendency to refer to higher numbers to justify their level of funding.

They are quite clear that they refer to the research which has shown the very highest number of victims and that there are other studies which show much lower numbers. From a cursory look, it looks like the surveys with lower numbers were more comprehensive, widespread and rigorous with their subjects and methodology and provided much more authoritative figures - which were much lower.

There are no facilities to accommodate those high risk women, because there is no demand. Until now...

I do wish the idealists fighting against women trying to protect sex segregated spaces would actively campaign for safe unisex spaces and/or appropriate facilities for those who high risk transitioners and a workable solution to all of the concerns that those opposing self id. There would be massive support and less aggro. But to say no (and actively argue against) to those wanting to maintain the status quo is just moral high-grounding whilst expecting others to fall in line with a vague "it'll be reet".

What's with gender identity reigning supreme, anyway?

Hello again hyppo. You are correct that male prisons have a greater capacity to manage high-risk prisoners.Therefore according to the Ministry of Justice, both female prisoners and transwomen prisoners who currently pose such risks are held in the male estates. Again, if an offender is placed in an estate without an adequate risk assessment and management, that is a safeguarding failure, which could be avoided.

Having read the GRA consultation, this is very unlikely to change. There is policy which dictates that anyone of sufficient risk is managed, and if the risk is sufficiently high, they will and are placed on the male estate. Along with high risk female sex offenders.

As for it being okay for him sharing a chasing room, obviously I would know, and would personally be uncomfortable. However, I cannot thrust a DBS check in to the hands of every person that enters a space with me. I may very well be sharing a changing room with a female sex offender. I may be alone on a train station platform with a convicted rapist. Thankfully the risk is small, so I choose to assume they're OK. If anything were to happen I would react accordingly, as I would with any person.

There are no facilities to accommodate those high risk women, because there is no demand. Until now...

There are no facilities because they are transferred to the male estate, as are high risk transwomen.