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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

In my understanding of the trans issue.

266 replies

Randomusername01 · 10/10/2018 16:44

I'm trying to work out if I'm being bigoted or not. I agree with some of the trans posts I see here but others, whilst maybe not being anti trans by mn standards definitely come across as mean and on the verge of being anti trans imo. Anyway I digress. Am I right in thinking that gender is just a feeling, constructed partly by society and partly by individual innateness. So I guess I do agree that people can self I'd their gender along whatever myriad there is. But this is separate from anatomical sex, which bar a minority of cases either fall under male with penis and female with a vagina. So you could perhaps identify with being female but anatomically you would be male? So is the problem lies in how society segregates things such as prisons, sports, changing rooms etc. By gender or otherwise?

OP posts:
MsMcWoodle · 10/10/2018 20:13

Re all being comfortable in our bodies, why then have surgery.
I don't want to get changed next to a penis, and I don't want little girls to have to either.

CaligulaBlushed · 10/10/2018 20:15

I also think,though I may be wrong, that a large part of male bodied people behaving dangerously is societys expectation that they will behsve dangerously.

This is the curse of gender again. Society tells men they can have power over women by having sex with them. It tells them they can exert power over men by fighting with them.

It tells women that they can't get any power over men by having sex with them, because that's what men want, and that they can have power over them with violence but that they'd be unlikely to succeed due to physical differences.

So men fight men, men rape women, and what is the worst thing gender tells us women can do to men? Humiliate them. Laugh at them. Belittle them. Because men are supposed to hold all the power.

Or do people think men are statistically more violent because of the "male brain"? I think it's far more nurture than nature, and we need to fix that so that women aren't predestined to become the victims of socially indoctrinated men.

VickyEadie · 10/10/2018 20:15

Trans women in sport does bother me though - there’s going to have to be measures in place to ensure natal girls aren’t losing their potential to be successful

There are measures in place, aren't there? It isn't just, "here's your new birth certificate, do you fancy high jump or the 100 metres?". That was my first worry about this whole debate, but I googled it and it looks like all the sports get to place restrictions on trans competitors to equalise any biological advantage; that's a fair solution, so long as it's scientific and transparent imo.

I'm afraid the "measures" don't even begin to "equalise" the advantages men enjoy. This thread is worth a read, because it explains how what they've 'put in place' cannot "equalise" the advantages. Moreover, as schools are already accepting 'guidance' that transgirls must be allowed to play sport with girls (and these young people have usually had no hormone therapy at all to change their bodies), the girls are going to be placed in danger of serious injury and run off the track. It'll kill girls' and women's sport.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3151217-Stats-on-why-we-have-women-and-men-sports

jellyfrizz · 10/10/2018 20:16

There are measures in place, aren't there? It isn't just, "here's your new birth certificate, do you fancy high jump or the 100 metres?". That was my first worry about this whole debate, but I googled it and it looks like all the sports get to place restrictions on trans competitors to equalise any biological advantage; that's a fair solution, so long as it's scientific and transparent imo.

Please could you link to your google searches because the googling I've done shows that for under 18s there are no 'measures' in most sports. And even in the Olympics you just have to lower your testosterone a bit to compete as a 'female'.

Theswaggyotter · 10/10/2018 20:18

jellyfrizz presumably because they count ‘literal violence’ eg misgendering as an actual assault Hmm
As others have said transwomen in UK are more likely to be murderers than murdered based on figures from past few years. So why are they the most oppressed???
Transwomen are likely to be physically bigger and stronger than average women and can be intimidating to women when they use single sex spaces. Assuming they don’t assault women, why should women have to feel uncomfortable to make way for some entitled male bodied people??

Gender is a lot of bollocks which causes a lot of harm. The answer is to segregate on basis of SEX and broaden the accepted ‘norms’ of what it is to be a man/woman within the biological categories. Eg men can wear dresses but are still men.

jellyfrizz · 10/10/2018 20:19

This is the curse of gender again.

Yes, gender is bad. Let's work to get rid of it. Biology will still be left though, females having periods, being the ones to have babies, being generally physically smaller etc.

Randomusername01 · 10/10/2018 20:20

I think this is where I'm kinda am against self Id as like others, I just don't want to be seeing any penis over the age of a young child that I'm not married to/have given birth to and vice versa. I don't think this is an unusual opinion in the wider general public and I suspect if pro trans self Id worded it as such there would be more backlash than is at present.

OP posts:
VickyEadie · 10/10/2018 20:20

Here's how it will start to push girls out of sport - an example from current statistics:

U13 girls 800m national record: 2.13.87

U13 boys 800m national record: 2.04.1

The top 31 (it'll be more, but Power of Ten stats only give me 31) boys' times are ALL faster than that top girl's record.

U15 girls 800m national record: 2.06.22

U15 boys 800m national record: 1.58.83

Power of Ten gives me up to number 57 in the boys' rankings - which is 1.58.83.

If boys are allowed to compete as girls, a pretty slow runner as a boy can destroy the hopes, dreams and morale of the girls.

VickyEadie · 10/10/2018 20:21

I thought I'd offer some more statistics on girls and boys in athletics, so here are the stats for U15 200m national records:

Boys: 21.99
Girls: 25.71

You might think, ooh, not such a big difference - but then scroll down the timings and find that you don't to that time (25.71) in the boys' rankings until you get to number 612.

See how even boys with mediocre times compared to other boys could, if they self-id, destroy the girls' sports?

VickyEadie · 10/10/2018 20:22

U17 national records for 800m

Boys: 1.47.36
Girls: 2.02

Boys' times only go to the 64th boy - and that's 1.52.84

Kolo · 10/10/2018 20:22

@jellyfrizz www.hrc.org/resources/sexual-assault-and-the-lgbt-community and ovc.gov we’re the first to come up for me. Not specifically U.K. stats, but I wasn’t looking for U.K. only. If I find any for U.K. I’ll post.

Gingerrogered · 10/10/2018 20:24

There are also people who think that sex is the most important characteristic because they consider women to have been historically oppressed on the basis of their sex characteristics (for example, comparative physical weakness, childbirth etc).

While I understand where these concerns come from, I don’t consider there to be any factual basis behind them. Trans women face the same kind of oppression as non-trans women. Men who are seen as being ‘feminine’ face oppression. This oppression is based on stereotypes about and prejudices towards gender, not sex.

AuntBeastie I don’t know where to start. That is one of the most deluded, sexist things I’ve heard in a long time. Of course we were oppressed by our biological sex. The vast majority of females throughout history has been because we were the only ones capable of childbirth and men wanted to be sure the children they were rearing were their own. We weren’t allowed to work or learn or do anything that would have given us independence because we might get up to naughty things with other men if we got uppity ideas. We were essentially property, not human beings. And a hell of a lot of us died very, very young because of childbirth too.

These attitudes still persist - a 30 year old childless man or transwoman isn’t going to get turned down for promotion because their boss thinks ‘their clock is ticking’. Transwomen are never going to struggle with periods or abortions or childbirth and a ruined body and the menopause.

Even if they live their lives as females from a young age they’re never going to be socialised fully as women or make the same decisions as women because they will never have to fear pregnancy (or infertility for that matter).

Our oppression is damn right down to our sex. It’s absolutely ridiculous to claim that it’s not. Even the whole TRA movement is proof of this because they want women to stand aside and be ‘nice’ and ‘kind’ to them and do as they tell us and let them show us how to ‘woman’ properly. Because they might have surgery to take their genitals away but they sure as hell haven’t lost their sense of male entitlement and expectations that women should defer to them and their wishes. And they have proven themselves to be perfectly willing to use violence to knock fear into the mildest mannered female objector. Just like, well, men.

There are some sensible transwomen who are what used to be called ‘transsexuals’ like Miranda Yardley who have genuinely lived as women for years and from their experiences and reflection have actually ‘got it’ and have a deeper understanding of what it is to be female, they are totally sympathetic to women and understand completely why women don’t want any Tomasina, Deidre or Harriet with a full set of male tackle and a beard doing their smear test unsupervised or providing intimate nursing care or staffing refuges or any other safe female place. But the rest of the TRA movement sums up exactly why their oppression is never and will never be the same as ours.

OunceOfFlounce · 10/10/2018 20:25

I'm so sorry to hear of the sexual assaults some posters in this thread have endured. I'm pleased for the poster who now seems to find it so easy sharing spaces with naked members of the opposite sex.

Of course, not every survivor of sexual assault will be able to do this and no one has the right to pressure any women into any situation they're not comfortable with.

I think its vital we preserve sex segregated spaces for vulnerable women and girls who will find it harder and harder to be a part of society otherwise.

CaligulaBlushed · 10/10/2018 20:26

Vicky how many young boys do you think are going to be transitioning in order to completely remove any girls from their school athletics teams???

I mean yeah, if you were telling me grown men might pretend to be trans in order to get an advantage I might see your point, but that wouldn't work because they'd have to lower their testosterone etc.

But kids? 13 year old boys? They're all going to start pretending to be trans just so they can get apart on the head at sports day?

I agree, school sports should be segregated, but I think for the odd transgender competitor as long as everybody's safe it's hardly going to crush the hopes and dreams of every natal girl.

Ledehe · 10/10/2018 20:26

I can't believe @kolo has stated that transwomen have a higher percentage of sexual assault than women.

Fuck off. That's only likely because they report it. Over one third of the women in the world have been sexually assaulted.

Have you seen the increase in rape cases committed by women recently. Legally rape can only be done with a penis. So transwomen rapists are out there.

The right of the few do not trump the rights of the many. You are welcome in women's only spaces....if you do not have a penis

MsMcWoodle · 10/10/2018 20:28

Anyone who doesn't realise the extent of this agenda should look at this:
www.pinknews.co.uk/2018/10/10/new-childrens-book-transgender-boy/?utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=Buffer&utm_campaign=PN
A children's book - for age 4 and up. Jackie didn't like dresses, so let's start her on a course that will lead to damaging puberty blockers, double mastectomy, and on to phalloplasty.

oldbirdy · 10/10/2018 20:31

I don't think all transwomen have been highly effeminate males . The two I know are certainly not, in any case.

littlbrowndog · 10/10/2018 20:31

They don’t have to transition to anything
They just have to say I am a girl
In USA they get sport# scholarship to college and it’s already happened there

Gingerrogered · 10/10/2018 20:32

Vicky how many young boys do you think are going to be transitioning in order to completely remove any girls from their school athletics teams???

Have you not noticed how fashionable it is amongst teenagers to be trans/non-binary/whatevs. And there is the ‘social contagion’ issue. If one child decides they are trans in a class it’s not common for several others to follow.

CaligulaBlushed · 10/10/2018 20:33

A children's book - for age 4 and up. Jackie didn't like dresses, so let's start her on a course that will lead to damaging puberty blockers, double mastectomy, and on to phalloplasty

That's what it says in the book, does it? Whatever. The article itself even says it's about social transition. Jesus.

BlardyBlar · 10/10/2018 20:33

It's just the same type of prudishness that stops me bathing naked in my garden.

That “prudishness” has been shaped by society and upbringing. Similar “prudishness” exists in most human societies, though the degree to which it is practiced does vary.

Those norms have evolved throughout the world for a reason. Amnesty International stated only a few years back that mixed sex spaces put women at risk. That has not changed.

You are being asked by the current debate to consider whether that “prudishness” is justified or not, and I suspect you feel as if you are being pushed to believe that it is unreasonable and transphobic to think that way.

Yet your discomfort persists.

Mine does too. I don’t believe that people can change sex. Many so-called transwomen have penises. They are still men, and however much you try to tell yourself otherwise to be “nice” your instincts are screaming the truth.

You said you don’t think transwomen pose a sexual threat? Why do you think that? Is there a genuine reason or is it because you’ve been pressured into saying so? The evidence suggests that even transsexuals (i.e. those who have undergone surgery) continue to commit crimes at the same rate as men.

You have instincts for a reason. I am suspicious of anyone who tells me I should ignore them.

Dommina · 10/10/2018 20:33

WTAF? How can you possibly be comparing bloody swingers/fetish clubs with normal, everyday life?

Because the swingers/fetish scene is a huge cross section of everyday people. We are actually, mostly just ordinary people with a very diverse range. Besides, I'm not necessarily comparing the scene exactly to every day life. I think it's at an insightful angle. Any event is full of chancers and most pertinently, people out looking for a shag. It's full of trans* and non-binary people too. To an outside viewer, a dangerous mixture. Naked bodies, sex, and debauchery in abundance. There is almost universal communal changing, mixed sex bathrooms and a total disregard for sex based roles or spaces.

Basically, I think it's a useful comparison to every day life, where Im expected to feel shy about my body, to cover up, to believe that people with penises are dangerous.

My point was, and I hope I make it clearly this time, is that because the expectations above are gone, there is space for a HUGE amount of education on consent. Horny young people who might otherwise be disrespectful or violate consent are often transformed in to extremely polite, respect people.

I know that people are wary of communal spaces, and TW. Im throwing my 2 cents in because I have spent a good quantity of time around both, and I've not seen the danger that is often talked about on here.

Hyppolyta · 10/10/2018 20:34

Caligua what is it you think transitioning consists of?

If a male says hes female, he is. Thats the point of self ID.

I know theres often jokes about males being lazy but its ridiculous to pretend no male will go to the effort of saying "Im female"

Yes ofcourse boys at school will say that. Especially to win at sporys or enter the girls changing rooms. Which dont have cubicles.

VickyEadie · 10/10/2018 20:34

They don’t have to transition to anything
They just have to say I am a girl
In USA they get sport# scholarship to college and it’s already happened there

Correct. Professional sports are very, very lucrative indeed. Self-id offers a viable means of making a fortune for mediocre male athletes. Canadian universities are already allowing men to compete with women purely on self-id - no 'transition' required.

Those saying the "odd" trans-identifying boy 'won't make much difference' to girls sport - have another look at the statistics I posted, please.

VickyEadie · 10/10/2018 20:36

Already destroying girls' athletics chances in America:

newyork.cbslocal.com/2018/06/13/transgender-track-athletes-win-connecticut-state-championship-debate-ensues/

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