In my understanding of the trans issue.

[Randomusername01]

I'm trying to work out if I'm being bigoted or not. I agree with some of the trans posts I see here but others, whilst maybe not being anti trans by mn standards definitely come across as mean and on the verge of being anti trans imo. Anyway I digress. Am I right in thinking that gender is just a feeling, constructed partly by society and partly by individual innateness. So I guess I do agree that people can self I'd their gender along whatever myriad there is. But this is separate from anatomical sex, which bar a minority of cases either fall under male with penis and female with a vagina. So you could perhaps identify with being female but anatomically you would be male? So is the problem lies in how society segregates things such as prisons, sports, changing rooms etc. By gender or otherwise?

Why isn’t that enough?

Transwomen are more likely to be registered sex offenders than men.

That’s huge! That needs to be on a billboard.

“Well for a start most primary school children all get changed in the same room together already, in my and therefore everyone I went to school with) experience there weren’t separate changing rooms until secondary. Also it’s not generally necessary to get naked while getting changed for PE. ”

I can still remember the sneering “We see your tits!” chants from the boys in my class when I was 10.
I’m told by my DD and other school aged girls that things are different in junior school these days: they are separated and most have girls and boys changing rooms or cloakrooms.

HandlebarTash81 It really does! And every single other crime? Male rates. So if they're "women" then why the discrepancy? Why this big difference? It's because regardless of their own personal feelings, (which I do sympathise with) they have still been socialised and lived as males. They still have male bodies. They cannot live womanhood, or perceive womanhood, except from the outside, through a male-bodied, male socialised gaze, (which explains why they tend to so thoroughly sexualise womanhood and focus on visible femininity.)
Dommina While I have sympathy for your past assaults, and understand your experiences in the kink community have been positive, I know many women who have been harassed, assaulted, or raped in the kink community. And those incidents are often swept under the rug, if they are even disclosed.
Perhaps your 'confidence' as you say, means that opportunistic sexual predators won't target you as long as there are more promising prey around. So you don't see the abuse that does go on.
Also I have to laugh despairing at your idea that being confident and demanding respect will necessarily stop a sexual predator. Sure, it makes a person less of an appealing target, usually, but it won't stop a predator who has that person in their sights.
I'm sure, for example, your enthusiasm for unisex spaces wouldn't stretch to you personally being imprisoned in a unisex prison?

I think confidence depends on the sexual predator. It’s not difficult to find porn that portrays, “Feminist getting fucked.” As we know, sex is used to assert power and subjugate women. There would be many men who have would target confident woman because they despise the confidence. It’s audacious. They need taking down a peg or two. It’s essentially threatening.

There would be many men who have would target confident woman because they despise the confidence. It’s audacious. They need taking down a peg or two. It’s essentially threatening.

Absolutely. Those would be the serial/opportunistic predators I think, as opposed to purely opportunistic ones. In fact, a friend of mine who was in the kink community, was targeted by one. First he destroyed her confidence over time during sexual liasons, and then he raped her. Ironically, he later transitioned, and her 'friends' in the community scolded her for not using female pronouns for him when she spoke out at last. She also wasn't believed.
Hers is one of the many stories that makes me so angry when people paint the kink community as a utopia of consent.

A poster earlier said, with regard to gender ideology: "How can it challenge [stereotypes]? If you like barbie you're a girl etc."

CaligulaBlushed responded:

Nobody seriously thinks that in this day and age. Transgender individuals just show us the other end of the spectrum.

Yet the linked photo below completely contradicts this claim, showing a teaching aid used by Mermaids, the organisation being recommended to schools to explain "gender identity" to our children.

gendertrender.wordpress.com/tag/mermaids-uk/

The "spectrum" on the poster in the photo clearly shows Barbie at one end and GI Joe at the other end. This stuff is actually now being taught in our schools, very much in this day and age.

For those in favour of unisex spaces:
Then you should surely be fine with transwomen using male spaces. Because it should all be unisex anyway. Right?

I’d also be really keen to know how lesbian transwomen with a penis feel about sex with other lesbian transwomen with a penis...

Gingerrogered you’re completely missing the point. And for the record I’m female (biologically, not trans) and I’m definitely not ugly, haha. That one did make me laugh.

All those things you mention are exactly the problem! And what’s led to this hypersexualisation of the human form? This notion that it’s something that needs to be hidden away, it’s a forbidden sexual entity. All that leering you describe is precisely BECAUSE the body has never been seen as a normal everyday thing. And you’re also being ridiculous, I have never suggested ‘skipping around starkers’ to make a point. I’m talking about situations where nudity is par for the course. I don’t enjoy this society we live in any more than you do, where men leer and grope and wolf whistle (and yes, all those things and more have happened to me!) but ultimately I choose to decide when my body is a sexual entity or not. I’m not going to let leering men dictate that to me. Something’s got to change, I’ve always believed, and still do, that demystifying and desexualising the body in its natural state is a step forward. It’s modern society that’s made the body sexual, and we can un-make it that way.

And for whoever said that trans women should in theory use male spaces because the ideal is for everything to be unisex, yes I do agree with your theory, despite the fact I know you’re trying to catch me out. But everything isn’t unisex is it. What about if we flip it around to a trans man with a beard etc, who looks to all intents and purposes like a man - would you want them in a female toilet?

ultimately I choose to decide when my body is a sexual entity or not
I thought you said you were raped? Did you get to choose then, to be blunt? The problem is that us females don't get to choose when we're sexual entities, as I also know from a great deal of painful personal experience. Men get to choose, ultimately.
And even in societies where unisex spaces are fairly common (Scandinavian countries for instance,) rape, sexual assault, porn, prostitution, and domestic violence still exist. It's not the "forbidden fruit" aspect that is the issue, its the "objectification of females as sexual objects" aspect.

What about if we flip it around to a trans man with a beard etc, who looks to all intents and purposes like a man - would you want them in a female toilet?
Yeah, I'm fine with that, actually.

What about if we flip it around to a trans man with a beard etc, who looks to all intents and purposes like a man - would you want them in a female toilet?

They would statistically be far less of a threat wouldn’t they? Not to mention more likely to be physically smaller. And understanding of periods and how the female body functions.

So if you’re talking about a choice between trans women and trans men in the female toilets I’d pick trans men all day every day.

Even with the beard (I’ve got no problem with hairy females and have been known to sprout a few chin hairs myself)

Jonny Did you read my post at 09:37 about sociopaths? How do you propose to deal with their existence, or that of all the other individuals with Cluster B personality disorders?

What you're suggesting about changing society via normalising nudity is nothing new. It was part of the counterculture movement of the 1960s and 1970s. It didn't work then, and it won't work now.

It's certainly a heated issue.

My view is that male and female people are segregated in certain areas for a good reason.

There is nothing in today's society that has convinced me that it is right for males to have easier access to female spaces. In fact I think females need more protection at the moment.

It feels like things are regressing in certain ways at the moment for women.

We seem to be having to defend our female only spaces from a concerted attack by mens rights activists.

I've been discussing this a lot with my husband and children recently.

We all come to the conclusion that men have to open up their spaces to feminised males. In fact my husband says he can't see why they are in any danger (other than perhaps being sniggered at and that would change the more there were of them using the facilities) and we've looked for reports of trans identified males being attached using male facilities and can't find any. Other than in prisons where perhaps there needs to be a special wing for them.

One reason we have sex segregated spaces is because it is widely recognised that men pose a risk to women, particularly in spaces where women are vulnerable.

I cannot see how a male declaring that he is now legally a woman suddenly means he is no longer a risk to women. How can it?

The other reason that we have sex segregated spaces is for dignity and privacy. Women's feeling of whether they feel comfortable should absolutely not be predicated on the feelings of the men around her.

If a man says he is a man, then a woman changing in an intimate space with him is allowed to be uncomfortable, state her boundaries, say no to changing in front of him.

But if that man says he is a woman or that he 'feels female' suddenly she is not allowed to feel that discomfort, not allowed to state her boundaries, not allowed to say 'no' to changing in front of him, those feelings are no longer valid?

Come the fuck on.

I agree that there is room for expanding male spaces to those who are feminine and many people would benefit from unisex accessible single-space facilities. People have fought for them for years because there are issues with sexed facilities. Turning our current sexed toilets and changing rooms into unisex spaces without even paying for proper attendants is laziness, cheapness, and fake progressivism. Same with the issues of the prisons, just putting trans people into a different space with things as they currently are rather than having separate units. It's people wanting to appear progressive while doing as little as humanly possible. People love to throw 'what about trans men' when it comes to toilets and other facilities - but I doubt they really think trans men would be better off in men's prisons.

We can sometimes choose to ignore leering and push past our feelings, that doesn't mean we entirely choose to be sexual entities. My then-7 year old didn't choose to sexually harassed and threatened. 1-in-3 school girls don't choose to have to deal with sexual harassment while in uniform. Feelings are an extension of our senses, they react, we don't get to choose what we do and do not feel anymore than we decide what our other senses pick up. We can typically decide what we do with those feelings, but we shouldn't act like women's feelings aren't already routinely dismissed and ignored when it comes to public spaces and more needs to be done to prevent women being further shut out of public spaces.

And, I know it's moved on from this and this has turned into a babble but as an intersex person - yes, intersex people have a wide range of beliefs and attitudes; however, almost every intersex activist and education organization has made a point of discussing that while there is overlap with LGBT+ and intersex people, there are major differences that are erased when intersex people are brought into discussions on trans issues and it is quite harmful to intersex people to use us as debate pawns to shore up a side on trans issues so most of us prefer not to be involved in them. From the world's largest, the ISNA, which treats intersex and dysphoria as medical conditions and are aligned more with disability rights to it's practically political opposite Oiii, it's UK branch is UK's largest intersex group which treats intersex and being trans more as natural variants, align more with LGBT+ rights though makes clear that they don't see us directly in that, they have all made the point that trans issues and intersex issues are different because we're all quite tired of them being mixed up and being brought into trans issues discussions never helps intersex people - in fact, we're regularly told we're "taking shots" at the trans community when we fight for our own rights like being against cosmetic surgeries in minors when really we just want to be viewed as we are and not seen or treated as an extenstion of trans communities to be brought out as they see fit. Even those of us who are also dysphoric don't want our situation to be used as evidence in trans issues. I'll take someone who respects my sex and actually uses intersex people as a source on intersex issues over someone who calls my body a grey area or that my DSD is relevant in any way to trans issues any day of the week. I'm sure anyone can find an intersex person who likes being brought into trans stuff but ignoring our communities to cherry-pick those is prioritizing those that make life easier for non-intersex people to use us over the majority of those who have worked their lives to make things better for us.

Sports segregated by sex makes space for intersex people because we have a sex. We are either female or male. Really, in all the intersex groups I've been in, the thing that seemed to piss people off most is those who were disrespectful enough to try to erase our sex. We're not a grey area, the knowledge of our sex is vital to our well-being and medical treatments. Some intersex conditions are lethal without treatment and many are life-limiting with treatment - cardiovascular and skeletal issues are very common alongside the obvious endocrine ones - so this is very important.

Our issues in sports has more to do with a lack of access to medical access and knowledge as our conditions are often hidden from us which puts people into a shock finding out when older after years of training (both ISNA and Oiii support children knowing their sex and condition and treatments from an early age, far too many are told they're undergoing treatment or taking medication for other things) and a lack of consistency and a segmented rather than holistic approach with the rules - so sex hormone levels being the be all and end all measurement rather than having multiple measures is an issue. Also, the media's lack of knowledge is a big issue. This applies to many other athletes as well and many are trying to make better systems.

There is room for mixed-sex competitions - I did so quite a lot when I was younger, I competed in wrestling in high school on an otherwise all male team - but there is no need to ignore the differences between the sexes on behalf of intersex people and single-sex competitions and records will continue to be vital. We have additional medical needs but we're not that different even genetically - a CAH woman with the highest amount of virilization is less than a billionth of a percent different than a non-intersex woman and the push by too many to act like we're entirely different is harmful.

We're not a gotcha, we do not disprove sexual dimorphism in humans, we're not really a complication (there is no intersex gamete and lack of gametes has never precluded someone from their sex), and when it comes to trans issues, the intersex communities are often at odds with many loud/more visible parts of trans communities than we are on the same page even when we disagree with each other as intersex people.

Fantastic, well-argued post, DN4Geek. But then I've noticed your posts always are - I always look out for them.

Fantastic post, DN4GeekinDerby, thank you for weighing in.

But how would you know they’re a trans man? If they looked that manly, would you not just assume they’re a biological male walking into a female toilet? Are they supposed to carry a sign? Would you stop and ask to see their genitals? How would you police that?

Why would transmen not just go in the men's?

But how would you know they’re a trans man? If they looked that manly, would you not just assume they’re a biological male walking into a female toilet? Are they supposed to carry a sign? Would you stop and ask to see their genitals? How would you police that?

If the consensus was that trans men used the female toilets I would assume they were a trans man.

If they were acting weirdly I would probably leave and alert security (as I would for a womanly looking person).

If they were a biological man in the female toilets for nefarious reasons asking to see their genitals would only encourage them.

Still wondering why a transman wouldn't just use the men's.

Still wondering why a transman wouldn't just use the men's.

It was in response to Johnny's question:

And for whoever said that trans women should in theory use male spaces because the ideal is for everything to be unisex, yes I do agree with your theory, despite the fact I know you’re trying to catch me out. But everything isn’t unisex is it. What about if we flip it around to a trans man with a beard etc, who looks to all intents and purposes like a man - would you want them in a female toilet?

jellyfrizz

I knew that! People often think they've come up with a 'gotcha!' using transmen, lesbians, intersex people and I think they ought to explain themselves properly.

I feel sorry for transmen, who seem to have been forgotten. Probably because they are biologically female. Biological men shout loudest. BTW I am genuinely happy for people to be who they believe they should be, but not at the expense of (innocent) others

If trans men use the men's toilets then they're going to have to put sanitary bins in all men's toilets aren't they. I'm surprised that's not been mentioned in one of the campaigns oh wait we're talking about trans men on way and their female so they are just quietly getting on with it.

As the queues for ladies toilets are always really long the ideal solution really would be for everybody who is non woman to use the men's toilets and only women be allowed to use the ladies. By women I mean adult human females and of course young females.