In my understanding of the trans issue.

[Randomusername01]

I'm trying to work out if I'm being bigoted or not. I agree with some of the trans posts I see here but others, whilst maybe not being anti trans by mn standards definitely come across as mean and on the verge of being anti trans imo. Anyway I digress. Am I right in thinking that gender is just a feeling, constructed partly by society and partly by individual innateness. So I guess I do agree that people can self I'd their gender along whatever myriad there is. But this is separate from anatomical sex, which bar a minority of cases either fall under male with penis and female with a vagina. So you could perhaps identify with being female but anatomically you would be male? So is the problem lies in how society segregates things such as prisons, sports, changing rooms etc. By gender or otherwise?

So any scaremongering about violent criminals being placed with women prisoners is just that. Scaremongering.

Thats not true though. Its happened already, and will continue to happen whilst we have ridiculous rules that say males should go in female prisons.

Wow sorry for that, not entirely sure what happened..it started posting while I was still writing..but then stopped loading and now triple post

I generally stay off these threads as I have a very different opinion on transpeople than most of mumsnet and sometimes it can be quite upsetting to read some of the bile spewed against people who I consider to be my friends.

I would like to ask though, of the people who are protective of women’s spaces, how they would feel about trans men using women’s spaces? After all, by your own argument, they aren’t men, they’re women.

Specifically, how would you feel about my 6’2 heavily muscled and bearded trans man friend turning up for your women’s only Pilates or swim class or whatever, on the basis he still has a womb?

Totally fine with transgender people born female using female spaces, 2minutespeace. After all I wouldn't say a 6ft2 non-trans female with severe PCOS that gave her a beard should be excluded. Also it's not on the basis of having a uterus - women with hysterectomies (something your friend will no doubt need before long, if they're on testosterone,) aren't excluded from female spaces. It's about being born female-bodied (or intersex and assigned female,) not about how one looks. All your friend would need to do was reassure the other born females there that they are also born female. Although I'm fairly certain your friend probably wouldn't want to join a female only group, anyway.

Your friend @2minutespeace is still likely to be on the recieving end of sexist discrimination having been born female, so yes my feminism embraces that person and they should be eligible for women-only shortlists and other female-only services and spaces if ever needed.

You are right that it isn't easy to tell on-sight the difference between an FTM trans person who nearly passes and an MTF trans person who isn't making much effort to 'pass' at all (eg Danielle). That's why a general culture of respect for the boundaries of women's spaces and an agreed definition is important. If the definition for who can use a female-only space is "anyone who wants to enter" then it obviously isn't a female-only space.

The point people fail to understand about toilets, is that the only time we need laws about men’s and women’s spaces is when people are made to feel uncomfortable.

Women NEED to be able to retain the right to have a space free of men. They need to be able to phone the police and say ‘there is a man in my space, it makes me uncomfortable’

Women of various religious origin need male free spaces or they are ostrichised from society.

The point, is that it is not just the trans people’s feelings, beliefs and safety that matters.

Despite assurances to the opposite, I'm not sure that I believe that the 6'2" bearded person would be welcome in women only spaces.

I think that most people would rely only on physical appearance and would react accordingly.

Same or the comment of them appearing on women only short lists. I can well see the cries of it being unfair and of them now benefitting from male privilege, despite them being born female.

Until a 6ft2 bearded transman attempts to do all these things, it's theoretical what the reaction would be.

To date, none of them have. I wonder why?

it can be quite upsetting to read some of the bile spewed against people who I consider to be my friends

Report the bile. Mumsnet are on to it and will delete those posts.

I think transmen can do what they like. If they 'pass' (and therefor feel safe) in mens areas, then thats fine. My concern is female spaces, men can sort their own stuff, but women are not a danger to men on a statistical level.

Same as really, if transwomen pass noone would be any the wiser unless they started helicoptering their dicks in a womens changing room or something.

However I differ from a lot of women on here too, in that I have absolutely no issue sharing with post operative transwomen. Yes they are still stronger than me and yes they retain a male pattern of villence it seems, but I do think it shows some commitment and basically...proves their dysphoria. Its self ID males that I have a problem with, and transactivists demanding that women open their doors to them, when transactivists appear to be among the most misogynistic in society.

I realise I didn't quite answer the question. Its quite odd to get a 6ft 2 transman. Generally transmen are easy to 'spot' as such as they look absolutely tiny next to men. But yes, if your transman friend felt concerned about theirsafety in the mens, I would be fine with them using the womens, as they are female. Its a bit of a grey area though, as transmen, once they are on testosterone, their levels of crime rises. And obviously their strength also.

One week left to do the self-ID consultation.

Government consultation page

Fair Play for Women guidance

Woman's Place UK guidance

I'm trying to work out if I'm being bigoted or not. I

Unlikely. A bigot is someone who is hostile or intolerant of people or opinions that differ. It is not someone who simply believes in the "wrong" ideological or moral position on a subject.

JAPAB and Randomusername01

Just because someone is bigoted doesn't mean that they are wrong.

Bigot has a very negative connotation when this couldn't be further from the truth.