To think there is too much stress and importance placed on education?

[CharlotteWebb]

I think education is important - of course it is.

BUT

I work a lot with young people and find that an awful lot of youngsters are suffering more and more with anxiety and all sorts of negative feelings because they feel they under so much stress to excel in their schooling.

As a parent I encourage my children to complete homework and try their best, but if they don't do well in exams, it's a shame but not the end of the world.

I think sometimes it's too easy to put pressure on our youngsters and they feel there are no alternatives?

I know of quite a few adults who are actually not academic at all - left school with no qualifications and are now rather successful either working for themselves or retrained later in life as an adult?

WIBU to think although individuals should do their best, it's also not a massive deal if one doesn't get high grades in their exam?.

Exactly. DD seems to be clearer even now at 11, she wants to be a wildlife photographer, so now we're researching clubs she can join.

I’d be pretty gutted if my DC failed all their exams because it would mean that something had gone terribly wrong along the way (they’re in primary atm).

I’m not sure that setting expectations for our children so low that they never could possibly be disappointed is the right way to protect them from mental health issues.

I couldn't care less if she failed all her exams, we would deal with it and move on

This seems a here and now situation, how would you deal with it when she was an unemployed adult living in poverty and deeply depressed about it. Would you still not care? Would you financially support her?

Our children are our children for life. Even when they are adults, not just when they are kids,

I've been an unemployed adult living in poverty. I got straight A's at school.

What about the ones who do well in school at the expense of their mental health, self discovery and confidence? Their grades can be at the top and their self esteem at the bottom.

I agree OP. And there's plenty of evidence about the greater success of less pressured education systems around the world. But you're unlikely to find agreement on mumsnet.

I think a lot of anxiety in kids at school is the thought of working hard and discussions about working hard rather than the reality of actually working hard. I think quite a few of my students spend many hours on social media and WhatsApp whipping themselves up into a frenzy sharing photos of flash cards and talking about how stressed they are.

If they focussed on just working hard for a shorter amount of time without distraction they would probably be a lot more successful and a lot less anxious.

And their parents. I can’t imagine our parents creating threads about how stressed they were about our exams. Or waking up feeling sick on results day. A lot of anxiety comes from parents (whether or not intended).

I think the idea high achievement and high expectations are linked to mental illness are somewhat questionable. In fact research commissioned by Public Health England would suggest exactly the opposite. High expectations and high achievement support good mental health.
Unrealistic expectations might impact on a few but on the whole the youngsters who end up troubled are more likely to be from ‘we only want them to be happy’ families who sell the myth of omnipresent joy, who allow children to fail at their own emotional resolve and resilience by jumping in too quickly when there is a problem and who accept ‘Exams don’t matter” so condone a cycle of failure. Nothing sets up children to have mental health problems more swiftly than failing and being supported to do so by parents who don’t want to take proper responsibility for their teenagers and make excuses for behaviour, for missing school, for not doing anything they don’t want to do.
Teenagers, like all children need structure, rules, boundaries and high expectations to reach their potential.

I don’t think it’s about exams don’t matter Cherry. I get what Charlotte is trying to say.
Not everyone is accademic in this world. However there are so many academic parents they struggle with the fact that their children aren’t and make their lives miserable by pushing them to be academic. That makes the child feel worthless and not up to the parents standards.

I have seen so many kids pushed to try the 11+ for grammar schools only because the parents did even if they hate it. Kids getting tutored since they are 7-8 years old when they want to run around and have fun. I understand the gifted kids or the ones that find it easy. But what about the rest that struggle and are forced to do it and then when they fail will automatically feel worthless? What about the kids that don’t even try “because I am not clever enough” ? Heard this by a 10 year old lady week and it broke my heart.
I don’t believe that being able to pass papers for a 12 year old at 10 is sign of great intelligence... and I told this to the aforementioned child

I think a sound grounding in being able to put perspective on things and realise things aren't the end of the world is essential

I totally agree as have one lucky enough to not have to worry about passing more than 3 GCSE's 9-4 and 2 A levels A -E for chosen Degree.

She has no stress academically because she knows it's not the end of the world if she doesn't get top marks. This has to promote good mental health when they have so many other things to think about. I don't think it's solely responsible for good mh.

No not everyone is academic but all children have a right to maximise their academic potential and not be written off a student ‘not bright enough to pass exams’. Far too easy to say you just want them to be happy (like parents of high achieving children want them to be miserable) and focussing on schoolwork doesn’t matter when truth is there’s not a huge amount you can do without 5A-Cs as a minimum.

Persistent condoned truanting, hanging about with a street corner gang, allowing underage alcohol and drugs, allowing precocious sexual activity (and possibly the trauma of termination), dead end jobs and unemployment and resultant poverty are far, far more likely to result in mental health problems. Parents setting high expectations to achieve is rarely the cause. The 11 plus preparation isn’t nice but only affects comparatively few children- most of whom don’t develop mental health problems.

In younger children the research would suggest main causes are poverty, family breakdown (which might also be poverty related), a lack of clear expectations and boundaries and failing to allow children to develop resilience by dealing with challenges (such as playground friendships and being told off by the teacher) themselves.

Personally, I’m also of the view poor sleep habits have much to answer for in terms of children’s mental health. Excess screen time and a lack of outdoor physical activity plays a part too.

Are we talking about 'education' or about gaining qualifications at school?

I was a 'school failure'. I failed my 11 + and went to a secondary modern school (not too bad in itself, but all the children knew that is where you went if you were not too clever). I developed mental health problems and dropped out of school one month after my fifteenth birthday. I had no qualifications and little experience of life.

Later, much later, I returned to learning and gained an impressive range of qualifications which helped me to establish a career.

Both my sons experienced mental ill health in their mid-teens and also left school at the beginning of Y10. Currently, they are still recovering and building up their self esteem, coping mechanisms and life skills. I have every confidence that they will return to study, when they are stable, and realise their academic potential, if that is what they need to do.

I work in the life long/adult learning sector and teach people who have excellent caring skills, practical skills or other vocational skills, but who perhaps need a little guidance about how to evidence these skills in a way that can lead to the qualification for which they are enrolled.

I also work with people who are returning to study after a long break or who, like me, had a fragmented school experience. The self esteem they acquire through study and when they achieve their goals is tremendous.

So, I do think it is unreasonable to suggest education is not important. Education, in its broadest sense, will shape a person and can transform his/her life. However, I do think there are children who may not achieve at school and this is why it is so important that there is the opportunity for them to gain the skills they require either through work-based learning or accessible routes to further and higher education.

The jobs market is so different from 30 years ago. Apprenticeships just aren't as relevant as they were back then. Kids need to learn a lot more and have better learning skills, and that's a trend that's increasing. When DH started his career, there were plenty of paper pushing jobs but now they all require either programming or heavy analysis skills (banking and IT). In my profession it's the same but less obvious.

V interesting thread.

I think it is complex but a focus on process and not attainment is really good. I.e try your hardest and then, whatever the outcome it is ok. That shifts the pressure on achieving what, for many, is unobtainable.

I think, however, schools trying to be good at everything (academic, co curricular, community, sport) puts additional pressure on kids and young adults.

Finally the trend for ‘growth mind set’ makes kids believe everything is within their grasp, which is unrealistic and leads to disappointment.

With my DC we have replaced ‘practice makes perfect’ with ‘practice makes better’, because there are many examples of where practice has not made perfect which can lead to the idea that practice was, therefore, a complete waste of time.

I think the pressure for kids to be good at everything isn’t necessarily coming from schools, but social media where they are constantly exposed to people putting their ‘best life’ on show, even if it’s fake. It also exposes them to rare perfection (the kid who has it all), where they wouldn’t necessarily see that in real life.

Holiday bore - yes that's exactly what my point is, very well put

Obviously some children are better at academics than others and judging every child by the performance of a top academic rather than their own progress is damaging.

BUT if you say that your child is not a top academic therefore you don’t care at all about their academic outcomes, then that is pretty cruel and dismissive given how much of their lives they spend working towards those outcomes.

Apologies I haven't read whole thread but I agree with you in part. I particular I think the change to numbers rather than grades hasn't been helpful for the mental health of teens.
Ds in year 10 has got a great work ethic and tries hard (we try and praise effort rather than results). He got a 7 ( old style a) in a recent assessment and was disappointed he didn't get an 8 or 9..... I mean wtaf an A is fucking fabulous. But know with an 8 or 9 to aim for he obviously isn't working hard enough. Crazy. (Not attempting a stealth boast by the way- you can substitute c as a "pass" in old money but a 4 is not a "strong pass".

They are constantly tracked and assessed and pushed.... Lots of time for assessment but not time for education in its broadest sense.

“The 11 plus preparation isn’t nice but only affects comparatively few children- most of whom don’t develop mental health problems”
Cherry / do you have research / data to back this up? I doubt it. All primary age kids are affected... actually some real life example I have seen ... some kids start tutoring at 7 years old.... and in year 5 many drop out of parties/ favourite hobbies / sports and even school trips to focus on the prep. Probably I live in am area with competitive parents.

And then I hear the kids that go to the local state secondary school say things like : I wasn’t good or clever enough to go to the grammar school.
I truly value education, I have a masters degree myself. But that shouldn’t be at the detriment of mental health.
I tell my kids they have to strive to do their best and progress based on themselves not try to mesure up to the top performers all the times. That’s not healthy ever. For any age or anybody.
People who are not academic do not end up automatically doing drugs/ alcohol and I’m gangs. Not where I am from at least. They end up doing normal jobs like nursing, carpenters, plumbers or retail. My brother who doesn’t have 1 O Level to his name is a very successful business man running his own business selling clothes. He was written off as a failure at school.
On the other hand I do know many academics that work in research that have chaotic lives and do drugs/ alcohol.
I don’t think education helps with prevention addiction..

Victim of Auto correct on my phone! I can spell 😂 ..
And
People who are not academic do not end up automatically doing drugs/ alcohol and In gangs
I am not in gangs! Promise

Holiday no, not all primary kids go through that because not all of them, in fact I think a majority of them, don’t live in grammar areas. And grammar areas can vary hugely. No 11+ where I live, most children of middle class educated parents go to the local comps.

When I said I couldn't care less if dd failed her exams what I meant is I don't believe exam success or failure is going to determine how whole life. I will encourage, support and facilitate her learning but I will not tell her that she has ruined her life if she doesn't pass all her gcses.

I am one of the parents who have told their child they don't need to try. I haven't said education isn't important. I have said education is available throughout your life and if you fail maths because you simply "can't" then so fucking what? Go back and do it when you're eighteen and you "can" or when you're thirty or get on the job training as a tattooist or hair stylist or whatever makes you happy.

My only requirement of her is for her to try as much as she feels she can and to be happy. Whether that is happy as a highflying academic, a cashier at Tesco or an award winning tattooist is up to her.

She self-harms and tends towards suicidal thoughts. A lot of her anxiety is centred around school and the way she is taught. Unfortunately, there aren't many options for children like DD who simply "can't".

Going into year ten was especially hard for her. The suicidal thoughts she hadn't struggled with for over year came back with a vengeance. She eventually admitted the teachers had been piling on the stress, telling her she has to try this year or she will never achieve anything and will spend 'forever' regretting it She calmed down when I told her she didn't have to try and none of it matters.

OP is NBU and I think anyone who believes she is must never have had to cope with a mentally unwell child.

Some kids just "can't" and the options for them are limited.

Charlotte you make a very good point that not every child or teenager knows what they want to do as a career, so the pressure to pick a university and course just for the purpose of a career is really difficult for some. I think careers advice at schools is generally crap as they have no awareness of more niche, creative or unusual jobs (in the case of creative industries, experience counts for far more than education anyway).

I also loathe this culture brought in by the Blair government that EVERYONE has to go to uni, which has led to almost every job that isn’t a service industry or manual kind of role requiring a degree. It’s fucking ridiculous. Degrees now are just used as a filtering system on application forms so firms don’t have to invest in training people, but a piece of paper saying you passed a uni course has zero bearing on your ability to do a job. I’ve met some graduates, even those with masters, that have zero common sense. I think it’s a brilliant step forward that some companies like Penguin publishing for example removed degrees as a requirement from their job vacancies. What about the thousands upon thousands of graduates who are working in admin or coffee shops because they can’t get graduate jobs? Simply having a degree means absolutely nothing now, because it’s ubiquitious. It doesn’t differentiate you from anyone else like it used to.

I work in a job that on paper requires a degree. I don’t have one. I got in my building up experience off my own back, by pestering people to give me work experience or and creating a portfolio (this is required in my job) of things I did myself. I used social media to network with people in the industry until my name became recognised. Almost single job ad for roles in my industry asks for a degree, but it’s a formality. If you had a degree but no practical experience or portfolio you wouldn’t get an interview or a job. I prioritised the practical, built enough evidence to show I can do the role, now I have a job and I’m at junior management level and expect to progress further. One of my staff, that I manage, has a masters!

Never have I ever experienced this thing posters mention that not having qualifications will come back to bite you in the arse because one day it’ll be decided you can’t progress any further because you don’t have a degree. Nobody even asks about my education (or anyone’s for that matter). the poster who said earlier that they’re glad they got a degree because they’re earning almost £40k in their late 20s - well yes, so am I, and I have no degree and pretty crap A level results.

I think there is too much stress placed on academic achievement. Education should be about so much more than GCSE grades. I feel sorry for kids. I also feel sorry for teachers as the system is horrible for them too.

The jobs market is so different from 30 years ago.

Credentials inflation is part of the problem, but alongside this I'd also say the nature of many jobs is changing. I remember listening to someone bitterly complaining that 'isn't it stupid ambulancemen (sic) need a degree'. Yes it would be stupid if it was 40 years ago when their role was to scoop you up, stick a blanket on you and drive you too a hospital as quickly as possible, rather than a modern day paramedic administrating life saving medical treatment.

"it's also not a massive deal if one doesn't get high grades in their exam"

Of course that's true. (sigh) By definition we can't all be massively above average in exams (which is what 'high' would mean to me).

A very valuable achievement is persuading our kids to aspire. Aspirations can come in lots of guises, not just academic. For some kids, even developing aspirations can be a big challenge, though. You have to work with where you are.