To ask you: All In or All Out?

[Quietrebel]

All seems to indicate that it's now crunch time for the UK. In the style of another active thread, I'd like to ask you all what you'd go for if given a binary choice between No Deal at all with the EU or Remain.
No blame game or mud slinging, just simple polite answers please.

ljkk completely agree. Never felt more disenfranchised than now.

Last I realised that the US in now becoming a dictatorship that's just pretending to be a democracy. We're heading in the same way.

The UK military has been decimated, we couldn’t go to war even if the politicians wanted it because we don’t have the numbers, the equipment or the vehicles to facilitate it.

The Mail front page TODAY is that the army is 4000 under strength to be an efficient fighting force due to a recruitment crisis.

So they are offering £10000 to ex soldiers they kicked out for failing drug tests!!!

So they are offering £10000 to ex soldiers they kicked out for failing drug tests!!!

That’s quite scary, especially from the perspective that in the theatre of war, a battle group is only as strong as its weakest link.

I know that the tankies are struggling because they have so few vehicles that actually work.

Incidentally, if anyone declared war on us we’d be fucked too.

But that’s where NATO Article 5 comes in - collective security.

But that’s where NATO Article 5 comes in - collective security.

I do wonder how all the people who witter on about sovereignty, getting freedom from other countries and being self sufficient would feel about that.

Remain

You mean NATO that trump wants to wind up?

People who argue that we have peace in Europe because of NATO have a very limited understanding of what security means. Collective security is about far more than joint military action. The economic/social/cultural interdependence created by the EU and the common market before it has been the cornerstone of peace in Europe since the second world war. While there is a role for NATO in purely military terms and to act as a deterrent to outside aggressors, the EU is what has fundamentally kept peace within Europe for the past decades.

I do wonder how all the people who witter on about sovereignty, getting freedom from other countries and being self sufficient would feel about that.

Cognitive dissonance.

Cognitive dissonance

I’m inclined to agree.

Although cognitive dissonance and hypocrisy don’t seem so different.

For example why can't the border/movement of citizens with Ireland have to suddenly change just because of an ideological change?

Because it's not ideological! Please do some research. This is a legal move, and as such those who are member states of the EU must comply with EU law and put in place appropriate borders. Was the secession of the Confederacy from the US an ideological change? No, it was a statement of declaration, 'We are no longer members of the United States of America' and so it had to be dealt with as such, suddenly, even. It's saying, 'We, an EU member state, are no longer part of this union.' What do you think the response should be?

Was the Declaration of Independence just ideological twaddle? No, it was 'We are no longer part of you.' Well, what do you think the response should have been. 'Okay, you norty boy! Carry on!' Yeah, right.

The EU seems like they are being bitter and petty to GB just because they don't want to part of the Shakey EU.

GB was already granted huge concessions in their EU membership. Now the rest of them are supposed to roll over and play dead at this, too? Would you? Would the US? Haahaa! IIRC when the Confederacy did the same thing to the US the US declared war on them. And when the continental states told GB they no longer wanted to be part of them what was the result? GB saying, 'Okay, you're just being ideological, let's negotiate to appease you?' No, they declared war on them. But now the EU is expected to say, 'Right, my bad, let's see how we can make this better for you,' or it's bitter and petty? That's quite rich, tbh.

LeftRightCentre spot on

I do wonder how all the people who witter on about sovereignty, getting freedom from other countries and being self sufficient would feel about that.

Most Brexitteers I know are furious about demos or the idea of another vote, adore unelected House of Lords, adore the Queen, love NATO, and are impatient to get under punitive WTO rules which we won't have any say in whatsoever.

You can't help feeling they are not all that interested in democracy and sovereignty at all.

You can't help feeling they are not all that interested in democracy and sovereignty at all

That’s exactly how I feel.

You can't help feeling they are not all that interested in democracy and sovereignty at all

Judging by the comments on MN it’s not so much that they’re not interested, but that they simply don’t understand it!

Remain Remain Remain!

The choice will be "Shit Deal" or "No Deal". Remain will not be an option.
Shit Deal.

Remain, remain a thousand times remain.

Remain

No deal.

Remain

If we had another Referendum with only choices = No deal or (whatever Boris other deal not Remain), I wonder if I'd vote at all. Gee whiz. What choices. Frying pan, fire, frying pan, fire...