To encourage Ocado shoppers to read this

[Estellesylvia]

If you are an Ocado customer, you should be aware that they consider defining ‘woman’ as an adult human female to be hate speech and not ‘in line with their values’.

They threatened to pull advertising from Primesite unless Primesite took down a billboard with the OED definition of woman on it.

They have received hundreds of complaints from women since, but have refused to apologise.

Just in case you might want to consider not giving your money to a company who consider the word woman to not be in line with their values.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3376466-ocado-boycott-after-support-of-primesight-action

And if you do decide to boycott, tell them why.

Not just trans men, trans people, pre or post transition. She said none of them should be parents, and that the children of trans people would be horribly damaged and should be in the care of social services.

I don't see how anyone can think it's OK to have a baby when you've been deliberately altering your hormone levels for years. Not to mention horrible horrible 'chest-feeding' where biological males take drugs to make themselves lactate. God knows what drugs are being passed into a poor baby's system.

Why do gender critical people always say that if people don’t agree with them we’re automatically against woman’s rights? But god forbid we say gender critical people can be transphobic? It’s so draining. Respect and listen to other people’s opinions if you want them to listen to yours.

@Earlywalker I find it funny you should say that, every time I have tried to engage in a debate with TRAs they don't respond to my point they just ask me why I'm such a bigot, why I'm transphobic and why I hate trans children. This was when I stated that I felt that, as a parent, I had the right to know if my child was sharing intimate space with a trans child with a penis.

I was not insulting, merely stating my opinion and own concerns as a parent of young girls. Instead of trying to open up a debate I'm harassed by people who accuse me of being something I'm not? Where is the respect for my opinion? Were they listening to my opinion? Absolutely not. I was immediately jumped on and insulted.

Respect goes both ways.

I wonder if Man-Adult human Male is offensive by Ocardo, probably not. It's always the women that have shit dumped on them for a great height.

Tbh, I don't personally think that you are necessarily definitely anti-women's rights.

That’s great, I’m sure I’m not as this year alone I’ve attended campaigns on repealing the 8th, anti trump rally, marc4women... but none of that seems to matter anymore if you believe trans women have the right to live freely without constantly being told they are not a women.

I’ve said many times I’m against selfID, my views are that should not be legal, however I believe if you’ve gone through the process of transitioning or obtained a GRC you should be free to live your life in peace.

Yes a minority of people may abuse this. A minority of male teachers go onto abuse their trust, does this mean no men should be allowed to teach just incase? Of course not.

The poster (which is what this is about) was so obviously constructed to alienate trans women and it does not sit right with me.

"What Posie may or may not believe is irrelevant"

No maybe about it. She been very clear about it multiple times, and it does matter, just as the motivations and beliefs of each of us matters, but especially if we wish others to follow our lead or respect or trust our versions of events.

"....the ludicrous position we are in now, where the OED definition of 'woman' is somehow deemed to be offensive."

It's not. The poster company were explicit that it wasn't the motivation behind the poster that led to its removal.

"That is a farcical situation, which is quite frankly abusive towards women."

It seems very wrong to me to devalue abuse towards women by putting this situation into that category.

"Those suggesting that anybody who believes in standing up for women's rights is automatically transphobic need to go back to school to learn to think critically."

I don't perceive Posie as standing up for women's rights. Even if I did, it's not that part that makes her a transphobe.

She's not automatically transphobic, but she is demonstrably, repeatedly, deliberately and persistently transphobic in her views and actions.

So biological fact is offensive, now I've heard it all. Transwomen have their own identity, they are Transwomen and Transmen.

Was the motivation... not wasn't.

Wonga, can you expand on the aforementioned issues that were never clarified.

How does a doctor/hospital/nurse tell which women need smears and which need prostate exams?

When you hear Ian Huntley [child murderer and rapist] is a woman, what is the process your brain goes through before you state that he is a woman?

Thanks.

Ocado have got this very wrong and should change their approach.

Wonga Harrop believes it is offensive, whether the poster company do or not.

I'm not personally following Posie's lead. However, I find it outrageous that her poster was taken down because a misogynistic man complained about it. Whoever she is, and whatever she has done, there was nothing wrong with that poster. It was legal. It was a dictionary definition. It is an insult to all women, not just Posie, to take it down. In any case, Posie should not lose her right to free speech just because certain individuals believe some of her views to be off-colour.

I do believe this is abusive to women.

When I spoke about the posters in this thread shouting 'transphobe', I wasn't referring to opinions about Posie, I was referring to the way the posters who agree with the TRAs name-call anyone who has the audacity to question how self-id will impact women. Shouting 'bigot' or 'transphobe' right off the bat, without any attempt to engage with the meat of the discussion is indeed, lazy, credulous thinking. It certainly is not critical thinking.

I buy my groceries from Ocado, not my political and social beliefs. It is irrelevant to me what a vendor of baked beans and furniture polish thinks about trans issues.

Ocado account closed.

Staysafe goodness, that's a naive view!

All consumer decisions/spending is a political act.

StaySafe I think you’ve missed the point, which is that this isn’t what Ocado think about trans issues, it’s what they think about women, their main customer base, whose definition they consider hate speech.

What I would like to know is why hasn’t this been reported by the Daily Mail et al? They seem to poach half there stories from sites like Mumsnet. This one is actually newsworthy for a change. I would like to see this covered in the mainstream press.

• I know the difference between their and there. I promise.

The Daily Mail and The Times covered the original billboard issue so I think they have done their bit. The Guardian, of course, totally ignored it.

I wouldn't wipe my bum in the guardian these days. When I was a student (1980a) it was a compulsory read!

Have I changed or has it?

Both, Fekko. You have become GC and The Guardian has become a pile of steaming shit.

I was always a bit right on though... The guardian didn't piss me off. It really does now.

Transphobia, if we use the correct meaning of phobia, means an irrational fear or hatred of trans people.

I’ve never seen Posie demonstrate that. She doesn’t believe transwomen are women (nor do I, nor do lots of people, nor does the OED or basic human biology) and she questions narcissistic delusion people’s parenting ability. That’s not phobic. That’s centring women’s and children’s rights.

Those saying Posie is transphobic have admirably demonstrated exactly why language matters.

I agree, River.

All very well to go all reductionist and confine the meaning of transphobia to actual hatred and fear, but that won't get you far as a legal defence.

The CPS use phrases like "motivation that includes hostility and prejudice" when describing how they identify and prosecute hate crime.

I'd be interested to see the outcome of someone using the "but I don't hate or fear them" line to excuse their homophobia.

Do you think that would work for them? I don't.

Because actually we're pretty good at identify homophobia, along with islamophobia, racism and sexism. And transphobia. (See Posie Parker for plentiful exemplars)

We’re also pretty good at identifying men and women, given that the human race would die out of we didn’t. But you think we should ignore what our brains tell us and perform cognitive leaps to indulge someone else’s beliefs and delusions. You’d want my child to do that.

And this isn’t a court of law.

And I still have seen no transphobia, according to what you’ve written, in Posie. She is fighting for women’s rights that are under attack.

All gay people should be sterilised.

How do you feel when you read that? Do you see that as homophonic? Of course it is. It’s disgusting. I could make my excuses and say I was having a bad day when I wrote it, but I still wrote it - the words still came out so I felt it somewhere. It’s wanting to wipe out those who don’t conform to your idea of the real sex. It’s History repeating itself.

If I started a thread today saying ‘there’s a male teacher who’s abused a student, AIBU to think all men should be unable to teach’

You’d all say ‘don’t be so ridiculous, not all men are predators’ yet there’s a small minority of worrying transgender people and you seem to want to blame all of them and stop them being able to live as a woman. Get over yourselves.

unless it wasn’t clear, Obviously I do not agree with the above statement at all