Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that if your thread is about a feminist issue you should post on the feminist board

344 replies

Shallishanti123 · 27/09/2018 12:52

Just that really. Too many feminist board type threads disguised as AIBUs, but really wanting to bash trans or whoever they feel like hating on right now.

Let’s just all be who we are and lead a happy life.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
RepealtheGRA · 28/09/2018 08:44

If you’re coming at this for the first time. Do your own research. That’s what I did.

Have a look round twitter, the #AdultHumanFemale hashtag is a good place to start.

ShotsFired · 28/09/2018 09:03

Wonga, where else do you suggest women go to get facts and information then?

How about suggesting other resources where this is discussed openly by women, about women, in terms of the impact it will have on women and girls? I think we'd all be very keen indeed to find other places where it is permitted!

BertrandRussell · 28/09/2018 09:07

"
If you're reading this and thinking about diving in to find out more about current trans politics, please don't make FWR your main or only source."

I agree. Can you link to some others, please?

Ereshkigal · 28/09/2018 09:18

They seem to think they are aligned with suffragettes

How would they not be?

Ereshkigal · 28/09/2018 09:19

As an sample of misrepresentation, there's a pic up this thread of a baseball bat wielding person. They are actually an artist, and the pic is part of an art piece.

Grin
ShotsFired · 28/09/2018 09:24

Oh it was ART!!!! now I get it.

Silly little woman-headed me.

I guess the hundreds, if not thousands, of tweets all inciting the same violence are also "Art"? Someone call the tate, quick!

Ereshkigal · 28/09/2018 09:26

Would that be like the San Francisco "art exhibition"? Where one of the "art pieces" was a bloodstained T shirt boasting about punching feminists?

twitter.com/PankhurstEM/status/999953415655579649?s=20

Viago · 28/09/2018 09:29

That's fair enough Brown, I wasn't sure if you'd seen it.

enrichedatthegulags · 28/09/2018 10:02

They seem to think they are aligned with suffragettes

I don't think the suffragettes were fighting for people like poor old Pip Bunce's right to vote, were they?

To think that if your thread is about a feminist issue you should post on the feminist board
Datun · 28/09/2018 10:12

If you're reading this and thinking about diving in to find out more about current trans politics, please don't make FWR your main or only source.

I completely agree with this.

Although many of the women post links, people can do their own research.

I absolutely 100% recommend that women ask questions elsewhere (if they can find anywhere that allows them to).

Go and ask. Raise the questions. Ask people to define terms. What is the definition of a woman that includes men? What is the definition of a transwoman? Do people know that only a small fraction of tw have genital surgery?

But. Make absolutely certain you are given links to back up any assertions. Opinions are only one person's thoughts.

Ask away.
Then report back.

Xiaoxiong · 28/09/2018 10:24

BrownPaperTeddy I appreciate your fence sitting - as I said, these cases are hard and there is no "right" answer, just people having discussions amongst themselves, with their elected representatives, in parliament, and to eventually make or change laws. However I would fasten on this: "in this case I'm not convinced that either one or both parties is of sound mind to want to be party to it." - I am guessing you feel this way because letting someone lop off your leg, say, and eat it is such a huge and negative event that you must not be of sound mind to even consider it. Many people feel this way about gender reassignment surgery when they find out the extent of physical damage that ensues and what it entails.

I think the reason people are talking about the scars and saying to google the surgery is because declaring that you're trans and then going down the road to surgery is often presented by trans activists as no big deal. Like coming out of the closet as gay, lesbian or bi. Just a statement about personal feelings, identity and lifestyle, another stripe on the rainbow flag, another letter in LGBTQ+, finding your tribe who understand that you are different and special. And then when schools, friends, social media and doctors not only affirm that statement but celebrate it, give them attention, say they're so stunning and brave, that they have done this wonderful thing to help their mental health, that they have been honest and true to themselves - that can make it very difficult to row back when the pressure is then on to take hormones and eventually, have surgery that many people truly have no idea how serious and life-altering it is. To find out what it entails is a real shocker to most.

Even trans people who have been through surgery and all the counselling beforehand are often blindsided by the physical effects. I don't know any trans men but I know two transwomen, one who transitioned in 1995 and one in 2010. I wasn't old enough to remember the first, but I know she couldn't dance again after her surgery because of the huge physical changes (she was a professional dancer). I do remember the second and she couldn't walk for months, complications with basically every single bodily function leading to repeated infection as well as all the "usual" things that can happen after surgery like abscesses around her stitches, huge bloating and gas, referred pain all over her body during the recover. It's 8 years on and she still is in pain sometimes, sometimes walks with an umbrella because she doesn't want to admit she needs a stick, and will probably never have a sexual relationship again. She kind of "knew" that these things were risks, signed every paper, sat through months of pre-surgery appointments but I honestly don't think she realised how truly life-changing it would be, and she is in her 50s.

The very sad thing is that while she was going through taking hormones, living as a woman, having lots of counselling (we had a party when she got the letter saying she was accepted at Charing Cross!) - she was really excited, happy, fulfilled - huge attention from friends, family, doctors - and stopped taking anti-Ds for the first time in her life and it seemed to all of us that it was proof-positive that transition was the right decision. Now I'm not so sure - while she puts on a very brave front I don't think she's as happy now as she had hoped, she is very lonely, couldn't continue working in her previous career so she is financially vulnerable and had to move away from support networks, the underlying mental health issues that were probably always there have returned, and in addition she has permanent physical limitations from surgery. It makes me very sad and it's like a huge elephant in the room that we cannot talk about, ever.

NobodyToVoteForNow · 28/09/2018 10:30

This is MUMSNET, op, a site primarily run by and dedicated to adult human females who are procreating. Being female is a feminist issue in a misogynistic society. Deal with it.

Womaningreen · 28/09/2018 10:31

OP it looks as if you might have learned some stuff that's really hidden from Jane Public at the moment.....that's exactly why it's good to have this discussion away from the feminist board. Goodness knows what some people think it's like on there - this thread is making me think there's an argument for removing that board and for all of it to go in Chat and AIBU.

it might raise awareness of a lot of issues.

I hope you will come back OP. Some of this information can be very upsetting to find, but it's vital you know about it before you find that sex segregated facilities have vanished - for you and your DC if you have them.

Xiaoxiong · 28/09/2018 10:34

I'm not saying that gender reassignment surgery is never a success, and never should happen. Our family friend who transitioned in the 1990s is happy now, is married with a family, though she lost her career. But I think it really, REALLY needs to be understood by everyone what a huge deal it is. It's not like a teenager coming out of the closet as gay. It's much, much more significant than that when medical treatment starts with blockers, hormones and finally surgery. I think rather than being demedicalised it needs to be MORE medicalised so that only people who are truly, deeply at risk for mental health reasons are able to access this kind of treatment and are supported by an extensive network of health professionals to go through it.

And that's even before we start talking about the implications for women's rights and the potential for self-ID to be abused.

MissusGeneHunt · 28/09/2018 10:36

@UpToHereHelen your post yesterday (I'm catching up) was so damn good. Thank you for your eloquent and intelligent words. I can only hope the distinction you've so clearly made resonates with those who cannot separate the issues. Flowers

Datun · 28/09/2018 10:38

John Hopkins University was at the forefront of medical transition.

They stopped surgery when they realised it didn't actually make the patient any happier. The surgery might have alleviated some symptoms, but the overall happiness of the person was unaffected.

There is a statistically very high chance of comorbid mental health issues with people who transition.

It doesn't take a genius to work out that transitioning might be looked upon as a cure for something else. Which remain unaddressed whilst affirmation at all costs is being pursued.

Again, it is with children and teenagers where this becomes, in my opinion, much more of an issue.

Middle-aged men encouraging youngsters to medically transition, whilst at the same time urging the government to reduce the criteria for them to become the opposite sex.

Transitioning when young will have life altering effects. Forever.

Puberty blockers are prescribed around age 11. Something like 99% of children who start, will go onto cross sex hormones which are irreversible.

Boys will grow breasts and their fat distribution will change, and their voice won't break. But the penis will remain, albeit undeveloped.

Girls do not develop, they grow body hair and their voice can get deeper on testosterone. They won't menstruate, and I believe, will increase the likelihood of a hysterectomy.

And they are deciding this age 11.

And the number of girls showing up gender clinics has gone up by 4000%.

It needs investigating, not shutting down.

C8H10N4O2 · 28/09/2018 10:39

@Shallishanti123

Thank you for starting this thread. I think you are expressing exactly what many women start off with and where I was a few years ago.

Someone else wondered how I didn't know what was going on. I don't know the answer to this

I could guess. You are pro individual rights, you feel empathetic toward people with gender dysphoria who frankly have a very tough time. I was campaigning on this 30 years ago. The trans friends I know from that period are GRC/transitioned and feel much like Helen above.

For me, the killer point was #nodebate. I don't trust anyone who just shuts down a question which affects women and children's safety with that response.

I check out sources. I found the sources on one end of the viewpoints were a lot more reliable and varied than the other (I'm a data nerd).

I am concerned that organisations for children will not discuss eg safeguarding. (I've sent direct questions to the groups concerned). In a world where girls are being raped and assaulted in school how can you find nodebate acceptable?

As a scientist I object to bad science on the subject being sent to schools, just as much as I object to creationism.

I find the awarding of a women's prize to a man who has been life long benefited from white male privilege and not overcome women's biology based barriers quite bizarre.

People should be free to express themselves how they wish, dress how they wish, I'll call them whatever name they choose. However the protections women and children need must be supported. Maybe a competing rights framework would work.

FWR is a good resource on this subject - most of the media are bought into #nodebate, it can be hard to find objective information.

You might want to start here:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3246322-A-Beginners-Guide-to-the-Transgender-Debate-A-Signpost-to-Useful-Mumsnet-Threads

Check out the sources for yourself, read a range of views but keep a strong critical head on when it comes to safeguarding.

bigKiteFlying · 28/09/2018 10:48

If you're reading this and thinking about diving in to find out more about current trans politics, please don't make FWR your main or only source.

I would recommend that with most things - look for other sources and corroborate.

Indeed, while I've posted the fair play for women site for help with the government consultation - I personally did google the questions which weren’t clear to me and read the Stonewall, NUS and some other groups takes on what the questions were asking and their suggested answers then decided what I thought and put it down in my own words.

It’s kind of ingrained in us as we have sourced scientific papers and looked at methodologies and statistics and found they differ to how they were reported.

I have to say as a native English speaker educated to post graduate level I have never before had to google quiet so often to understand what the questions were getting at as with that consultation.

UpstartCrow · 28/09/2018 10:49

Give it 10 years and you'll be back complaining about women who didn't do enough to protect your rights for you when they saw what was coming.

Xiaoxiong · 28/09/2018 10:57

Come on people, RTFT - the OP's been peak transed and has been very gracious about it. Let's support her now rather than give her a kicking. She's still in that horrible haze where the scales have fallen from her eyes and she's lurching around in disbelief.

I found this article very useful - non-MN source, a blog originally started for the anti Page 3 campaign: Have Women And Girls Got Too Many Rights?

bigKiteFlying · 28/09/2018 11:10

I have to admit while Safeguarding round children is something I worry about a lot - like it sound Op does as well - I'm also concerned about mixed sex hospital wards.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3378258--Transwomen-should-be-treated-on-female-wards

I have aging relatives – it can be a struggle to get them to seek medical advice now without them fearing mixed sex wards or us worrying about their safety if they suffer mental declines and need to be admitted to hospital.

BrownPaperTeddy · 28/09/2018 11:36

@Xiaoxiong

Your posts really resonate with me and I can absolutely understand and agree with your points - I wish that I had encountered you when I've looked at other threads. Thank you for taking so much time to explain this.

This thread has by far been the most useful thread to help those of us coming new to this topic.

Most threads if you ask questions you end up with people jumping on because you don't see exactly what they see.

Your posts just make so much sense to me so thank you. I hope to read more from you.

Xiaoxiong · 28/09/2018 11:55

Flowers for you Teddy - my username means little bear in Chinese so perhaps we are resonating on a username basis!

I'm fighting this battle at present with my otherwise wonderful DH who just doesn't get it - so perhaps my arguments were better rehearsed than others, or phrased in a way so as to convince in person rather than the usual keyboard warrior manner!! I love the anonymity of MN for some things but people do say things on the screen that they wouldn't face to face.

Post away as to your questions, concerns, worries. Talking about it is a good and important thing - which is why the whole "no debate" hashtag thing is so utterly toxic.

SpannerInTheWorks · 28/09/2018 12:57

Talking about it is a good and important thing - which is why the whole "no debate" hashtag thing is so utterly toxic.

I can't help thinking that if the government and other organisations had had the sense to get both trans groups and women's groups round a table at an early stage, before everything got so nasty, most of this could have been avoided. We actually share large numbers of concerns and aspirations - we all want to live happy and fulfilled lives outside of the prescriptive roles that patriarchal society prescribe to us, and we all want to be safe from dangerous men in public and private spaces.

It's such a shame that it's descended into highly polarised shouting on Twitter.

rightreckoner · 28/09/2018 13:47

I fear not spanner. TRAs explicitly want our erasure - they’ve said it themselves. Part of their agenda is that we must agree that they are women. They are us. We are nothing. That’s the explicit goal. It’s not about taking turns in the changing room.

Swipe left for the next trending thread