To think that if your thread is about a feminist issue you should post on the feminist board

[Shallishanti123]

Just that really. Too many feminist board type threads disguised as AIBUs, but really wanting to bash trans or whoever they feel like hating on right now.

Let’s just all be who we are and lead a happy life.

BrownPaperTeddy

I don't disagree that adults have rights to do things to damage themselves. I just want to know why they do it, and where the pressure is coming from.

Particularly young girls. Stephanie Davis Arai says she has yet to see a girl transition who wasn't either a lesbian, autistic or have suffered from some kind of sexual trauma.
This is entirely within the remit of feminism.

Feminism embraces gender nonconformity. You don't get more gender nonconforming than being gay. So why are so many young lesbians being pressured to identify as male? Being butch is seen as something wrong in a woman.

Likewise autism. It's traditionally been under diagnosed in women. Why is it so over represented in trans people?

And past sexual trauma? It really isn't difficult understand why a girl might want to identify out of that position. And out of the possibility of it recurring.

All these are feminist issues.

As I said, it's less about rights and more about reasons.

Women have the right to not be raped. Doesn't stop feminists making it a cornerstone of the movement.

Oh, and I'm glad you're finding it civil! It is perfectly possible!!!!

I think women have had enough of people telling them what they can and cannot do. And do remember, all things feminine effect women and very often men. What’s happening with girl guides should not be tucked away on the feminism board - just one reason why you are being unreasonable. The changes to the GRA should not be hidden in there either.

Yes, I think Girl Guides was a mainstream turning point.

BrownPaperTeddy - just for fun and to poke around the limits of your classical liberalism regarding bodily autonomy, what do you think of the Armin Meiwes case? DH sets it as an ethics question to his students - can one consent to being killed and eaten? If the person you kill and eat is of sound mind and apparently consented (signed a contract, for instance), are you criminally culpable for their murder? Does it make a difference if one or both of you got sexual gratification from the killing and eating?

Another one - how much can you beat another person up by consent? Boxing matches? S&M? Permanently disfiguring S&M? (I had to write an essay on this at law school, good old R v Brown for any other lawyers out there...)

This is the interesting thing about "so long as it is legal" - under common law the general principle is that anything is legal until something makes it illegal (usually when it runs contrary to a general principle of the common law or a statute is brought in to make it illegal). There are many things that are currently legal that probably should be illegal and vice versa, and legality isn't always the best way to determine whether something should or shouldn't be done. Any lawyer will tell you that hard cases make bad laws!

As to the respectful nature of this thread, it's no different than many I've read over on FWR so come on over! I must say that I've never found the unreasonable side of this debate to be the feminists - we're all socialised to be peacemaking people pleasers after all

As to the respectful nature of this thread, it's no different than many I've read over on FWR so come on over!

Thank you for the invitation but I respectfully decline. Honestly, the name calling and abuse that I've witnessed there really closed my mind to this subject which is very sad because there are some aspects of it that do concern me greatly.

Can one consent to be killed and eaten? - Hhhmmm. Can I sit on the fence? On the one hand - no. Murder is illegal so to that end I'd say no one can lawfully ask another to kill someone (even if it's yourself). Cannibalism is also probably illegal. Secondly, morally I don't think encouraging someone to commit such a depraved act is right. The ultimate effect on the killer's mental health is a violent act. However, should there be a limit to a consensual act between 2 people? I think here my answer is no there shouldn't although in this case I'm not convinced that either one or both parties is of sound mind to want to be party to it.

Told you I was happiest sitting on the fence.

I agree. No need for it... YANBU..

Brown re the surgery, did you google the surgery Datun mentioned? Have you seen the arm scars? On the one hand I wouldn't wish for anyone to see it if they didn't want to, but equally I feel you might feel differently about the surgery. Or not, I don't know.

Anyway, yes I'm not sure I've ever seen an AIBU become more reasonable as it went along!

@Viago

I have seen the scars before. I don't know how I feel about them. Yes it's a huge surgery that causes those scars. But so do other types of surgery or injury. Is it because the patient has chosen to have it rather than having to have it to treat an illness?

I feel incredibly sad that anyone feels so driven to have to undergo such a radical surgery. But then if they are so unhappy with their lives and believe that this is the answer is it right to deny them that?

I'm probably not the right person to discuss scars with. I have quite a significant scar from a surgery I had when I was younger and have struggled with strangers looking or commenting. As such my feeling is that you don't make comments about anyone else's body and certainly not scars.(This is completely my hang up though. I only mention it because I have a slightly odd view on body image/judgement and I'm not really the best person to ask for a balanced view).

Name calling and abuse? Not from the women on there. Not that I can recall off hand.

Here on AIBU - loads of it! Yet you venture here!

I call poppycock!

@Ucantarguewistupid

There absolutely is, whether you see it or not.

I have just seen this which shows why certain people should not speak for women or transwomen or influence anything.in my opinion.

"Meet "Rosa", the guy who thinks he has taken the word woman from us. He says HE is a woman, and we are not woman. They have chanted the phrase "transwomen are women" for a decade; now it's time for them to start chanting the second line:"... and cis women are NOT." " ~ Hetty Westfield

This is Rosa's tweet......

YABVU.

I'm pretty sure you know that though. 🙄

Amazingly women like to discuss all kinds of issues, not just busy their pretty little heads with frivolous threads.

Slap I took one look at that photo and made a bet with myself that they were a gamer, watches anime and works in software/IT, before looking at their tw@tter page...

...and I owe myself a coke.

Gamer
Anime watcher
Retweets things about software
Antifa
'Lesbian'
Paypal/Gofundme account

Oh and of course a porn account with a lovely photo of them with big bruises on their neck.

Bingo card complete.

I don't read anything I'm not interested in so it doesn't matter what board it's on. I never read anything with feminist in the header. Apart from this one

Slap I took one look at that photo and made a bet with myself that they were a gamer, watches anime and works in software/IT, before looking at their tw@tter page...

...and I owe myself a coke.

Yes, so predictable.

No one is hating on trans women. No one thinks trans women are paedophiles and preditors. What people are trying to point out is that once trans women or even worse people who self ID as women without question you will see a huge surge of penis bearing monsters (said preditors and paedophiles) will all of a sudden start 'identifying' as women to access supposedly safe spaces. If this isn't a concern for you then you are being VVV unreasonable. If you don't think it will happen then you are niave. It's not about bashing anyone it's about preserving women's rights and safeguarding our children

Sorry I can't remember who said what and my app doesn't let me write and see the thread at the same time.

It wasn't Helen's post that made me realise what was going on. That was the cherry on top. Someone accused me of only listening because it wasn't a woman who said it... ridiculous. I listen to all folk equally without sex being involved. I would love to be able to have a AMA type thread, but I fear how it would go.

Someone else wondered how I didn't know what was going on. I don't know the answer to this. Maybe I am innocent minded, maybe I am ignorant. I thought the TRA people were transgender and that meant that they had either had reassignment surgery or they wanted it. I thought that they were just normal people with no ulterior motive.

To be honest, I am still quite shocked about it all. I never imagined this to be the case. I was thinking it was an extreme reaction and that it was similar to Racism or Homophobia - that you were all hating innocent people. I didn't, and still don't, realise the full extent of what is going on.

Also, the threads sometimes descend into abuse or people using emotional examples to try prove their point - talking of children being raped in schools. (I switch off at that, not through not wanting to know - more the opposite - It has a very bad impact on my MH) Whilst that is a serious issue and it does need addressing, in my head it caused anger - what on earth has a transgender adult got to do with a child being raped? Then I thought how terrible it was that trans was being linked to paedophilia... and so on. Hopefully my train of thought makes sense there. That's why I was angry, that's why i made this thread.

I never knew about these fake trans people with their trans age. Surely it's not trans age but a mental health problem instead? I wish they had a new name as I hate that they're being linked to the genuine trans people.

Shallishanti123

Ok, I understand now. You're kind of looking at things back to front.

Predators equal transwomen.

Instead of predators using the ideology. An ideology that has little to do with gender dysphoria.

Statistically transwomen conform to male pattern criminality. So you'll get just as many predators as in the general population.

But what's also happening is the ideology is attracting all kinds of weirdos, fetishists, chancers and predators. It's like a magnet because being trans seems to be making people disregard normal risk assessment and safeguarding. It's actually avoiding it.

A man making lingering eye contact with you in a changing room is a voyeur and law breaker. Unless he's trans. In which case he's just another woman. Despite making you stressed and uncomfortable, it's not a crime for one woman to look at another. Or moisturise their thighs whilst glancing up.

You know, he knows, everyone knows, but with a change in the law, hands are tied.

Woman is an adult human female.

Well done shalli.

A lot of this stuff is hard to take, and many of us have heard it gradually over a longer time- you've had it all in one go!

As in all things, there are people who have stronger views about aspects of this, and there are occasions when the language gets inflammatory or abusive- and rightly MNHQ delete those posts.

Most of us are worried, and angry. We see children being medicalised, and debate being restricted or shut down.

The government are consulting on changing the way people can legally change their sex, including changing their birth certificate, and many of use are concerned about what that means when predatory men do that in order to be abusive. That is NOT to say that we think trans people will be abusive.

We don't want people to sleep walk into a situation that makes life less safe for women and children, and where eg Muslim women can no longer engage in aspects of life because male bodied people will be there.

Lots of respect to you for responding so graciously.

Shalli

I have followed this bread with interest. You have responded so graciously and you are so genuinely open minded. That’s rare these days. To engage in debate and to learn the other person’s point of view and accept it is a wonderful trait to have.

I also want to say thank you for starting this thread as I didn’t know any of this either and I thought the same as you! This thread has been a real eye opener and the fact that you have responded as you have had kept the discussion going which is very important. If you hadn’t done this, it could easily have descended in to a bun fight and the thread would have been deleted.

And I apologise my my ‘don’t police the forum’ comment many pages ago

*thread!! I’m so hungry!

I agree with ethelfledas post as well.

Many long term GC posters have been banned, some permanently, because some men launched a concerted effort to get MN to ban all discussion about it

Not true. They were banned for repeatedly and persistently breaking the talk guidelines despite lots of warnings and patience from MNHQ.

It pisses me right off that the GC gang write as though they are the voice of women, feminism and mn.

They seem to think they are aligned with suffragettes, and are behaving as though the banned posters are some sort of mn martyrs.

If you're reading this and thinking about diving in to find out more about current trans politics, please don't make FWR your main or only source.

As an sample of misrepresentation, there's a pic up this thread of a baseball bat wielding person. They are actually an artist, and the pic is part of an art piece.