To think that if Girl Guides is for girls, it should allow all girls to be members?

[OrchidInTheSun]

Girl guides have confirmed that if a girl identifies as a boy, they'll kick them out.

So they are no longer a single sex organisation, they are a single gender one.

Mad

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ban-for-girl-guides-who-identify-as-boys-dlj8mjk23

Oh god not this again. Just stop reading, perhaps!

People on MN hate trans people. COs when you do you ignore everything GC posters actually say!

Trans people are the most likely to suffer from physical violence, suicide, depression. Which often includes detailed reports that show this isn't true!

Yet how they feel is totally irrelevant. Yep, when they want their feelings to override biology and the law!

There are not many many girls being excluded by this policy. Your source for that assertion?

Trans kids aren't tomboys. Yup! They are confused kids, in need of support and understanding.

I was a tomboy I never felt the need to change my gender Me too. And I was never told it was possible to change my gender, or sex, unlike kids of today!

One more time, just in case.... GC feminists are not against any trans individual. But they are against trans ideology!

Reproduction is sex not gender. We are discussing gender.

No, Gemma. YOU are talking about gender. Others are talking about sex. You have failed to give a justification for segregating people on the basis of a feeling or identity. I have explained e.g. why we segregate in sports based on biology (because otherwise bio females would have no chance), but you have not explained why sleeping arrangements should be based on how someone feels within themselves. Maybe if you are able to articulate this, we could talk.

I have repeatedly said no one should be forced to share sleeping space. But I also think that same sex people shouldn’t be forced to share sleep space. My experiences of guiding is that I only shared with people I wanted to.

Gemma-Muslim girls are only allowed to join Guides at all because it it a single sexual organisation. That is one of the reasons Guides did not become mixed when Scouts did. This policy will mean that many Muslim girls will not be allowed to join at all. Does that seem right to you?

There are not many many girls being excluded by this policy

And who cares about the real, cunty ones anyway? Funny how a minority of those born male matter, but not a (supposed) minority of those born female.

Perhaps the answer for that particular troop is the trans girl or the Muslim girl using a particular set of facilities and each showing redirect to the other. In another troop the solution may be different. No two people are the same.

If the trans girl uses separate facilities, the Muslim girl wouldn't need to. Plus, as numerous cases that have been reported in the news show, having separate facilities is not enough for trans people. They want the validation of being able to use the female facilities. They argue that they are singled out and othered if not. That is why this is such a mess.
My preference is for mandating the state to provide transgender facilities where possible. However, I strongly suspect that this will not be enough. The other solution is to make everything unisex, but this will hugely disadvantage natal women. I think safety has to come before feelings and therefore I am not prepared to budge on this. If trans women do not want to use male facilities, they must get a third space that they can use. However, female facilities must remain single sex.

There are not many many girls being excluded by this policy

There are very large numbers of Muslim and Jewish girls in this country. If we are going on numbers, surely the number of trans girls that will be upset by not being able to share female facilities is even smaller? Why should their feelings take priority over the feelings of a significantly larger group?

Trans kids aren't tomboys. I was a tomboy I never felt the need to change my gender

I certainly wanted to be a boy from the ages of 5 (That's as far back as I can remember) until around 16. I very much lived as a boy even to the extent of straddling the toilet to pee.

I didn't ask about changing my sex because it wasn't a thing then. And thank God it wasn't because I enjoy being a woman and doing things that men can't do - like bearing my children and being a mother.

I am not Muslim nor do I know enough about the exact requirements. My point was - more a trans girl will also have requirements - they may too feel uncomfortable with gendered facilities or shared sleeping.

Yes, you really really don't know enough about the "exact requirements".

Muslim girls will no longer be permitted to join GirlGuiding. There will be exceptions, where their parents are more liberal, but by and large, this policy is excluding a vast number of girls who are already excluded from a lot of other things due to the religion they were born into.

Whereas, a trans teen could opt to join Scouting, which would happily accommodate both genders of trans - MtF, and FtM.

Trans kids aren't tomboys. I was a tomboy I never felt the need to change my gender

Agreed. Another tomboy here who never questioned what sex I was. And still don't.

Where there is conflict there can be discussion.

Nope, because GG are concealing this information from parents. They have also said there is no real discussion, the trans child's feelings trump all else.

nor do I know enough about the exact requirements

And yet you want to make changes which will restrict their access to GG based on that lack of knowledge.

I have repeatedly said no one should be forced to share sleeping space. But I also think that same sex people shouldn’t be forced to share sleep space. My experiences of guiding is that I only shared with people I wanted to.

Oh, come on. Nobody has the right to a private room on camping trips. It is totally fine for children of the same sex to share and this happens on trips- you can't always pick to share with your mates. Sometimes you are randomly allocated. What you should be able to insist on however is that you share with members of the same sex as you.

That’s my point either the trans girl or the Muslim girl used separate facilities based on the individuals. We are talking about trans children at guides. But yes more widely I agree that third spaces should be made available.

I am wondering what will happen with girls schools, with some personal interest as DD1 goes to an all girls school.

Muslim girl used separate facilities based on the individual

Why the Muslim girl? Why not the trans child?

And of course, this assumes more than one set of facilities.

Swissgemma You said 'not that they pick and chose on a daily basis.' Between being a man and a woman.

Well, some people do. Philip Bunce has just won an award for women in business. Some days he goes to work at Philip, and must be referred to as 'he' and he uses the male toilets etc. Some days she goes to work as pip, wears a pink dress, must be referred to as 'she' and uses the female toilets.

And your comments about Muslim girls- yes, I volunteered on guide holiday. There was 1 room for all the guides, and one for the leaders. The girls could not choose not to share with someone- they were all in together. There was one set of washing facilities for the girls.
A Muslim girl would not have been able to be there if there was a trans girl there.

'Third spaces should be more available'

Oh come on! The TRAs specifically reject third spaces, as they are 'transphobic'.

"That’s my point either the trans girl or the Muslim girl used separate facilities based on the individuals"

Which bit of "Many Muslim girls will not be allowed to join at all" are you failing to understand?

That’s my point either the trans girl or the Muslim girl used separate facilities based on the individuals.

No, not either or. If this was a biological boy who 'felt like a boy', you would have precisely zero problems telling him that he needed to use separate facilities. Just because this person claims to feel like a girl (whatever that means), they are still male and have male bodies and male genitalia. That is why, if trans girls are allowed into the GG, they need to ensure that separate facilities are available for them. Same with trans children at school. Third spaces. Not requiring girls who have a problem with it to be excluded and to place the responsibility on them to object.

Trans people are the most likely to suffer from physical violence, suicide, depression.

HardofCleaning I presume you are unaware that, in the UK at least, you are statistically less likely to be murdered if you are trans than if you are not trans.

Meanwhile two women get murdered a week.

Meanwhile women in prison are three times higher likely to self-harm than male prisoners are, and their rate of harm is twice as much.

Facts matter.

Re: sleep space I am agreeing. No one should be forced to share with people they don’t want to. Same sex sharing is the norm. I know, but I wouldn’t’ve wanted to be forced to share with a same sex bully irrespective of gender. Similarly though I would’ve been comfortable sharing with a whole host of my close opposite sex friends.

It is a question of respect and discussion. Identifying pinch points and dealing with them.

Re: Muslim girls - I have no idea about numbers but there would need to be a troop with both a Muslim girl and trans girl for the issue to arise. And as I said open discussion on all parts would be needed. As I would imagine there would be before a strict Muslim girl went on any residential trip. I am not saying any one individuals needs trump another’s but that there needs to be discussion to find solutions.

I am not saying any one individuals needs trump another’s but that there needs to be discussion to find solutions.

Except discussion is not allowed, on pain of being thrown out of the organisation.

And that no amount of discussion will resolve a situation where on the one hand a girl is not allowed to share sleeping spaces with a boy, and on the other hand the GGs are insisting a boy should be allowed on residential trips in this girl-only organisation.

It horrifies me that Girl Guides would expel a member who decided to identify as a boy. To do that to a young person, at a point in their life when they were struggling with their identity, and most needed the support of an amazing organisation like the Guides, is cruel.

It also says to me that someone with a uterus could be less female than a person with a penis. Madness.

" I have no idea about numbers but there would need to be a troop with both a Muslim girl and trans girl for the issue to arise."
No. The possibility of it happening means many Muslim girls will not be allowed to join in the first place

gemma I am not Muslim. I want to have the choice of single-sex facilities. You're mistakenly assuming that everyone who is not Muslim is or should be totally fine with this. The point is that as a woman, I do not want to share shower facilities or changing rooms with a person with a penis. This is not unreasonable because you totally accept my choice if we are talking about a non-trans male. Why is it so bloody different if the person with a penis claims to be female and to feel like a woman? It's the same to me. I can't see or feel someone else's gender identity.

Re sleeping, if your point is that people should only share with those they like, that is idiotic and unworkable. If there is only one dorm room, it is not a possibility. However, it is totally reasonable to ensure that people only sleep in rooms with those of the same sex, and this is indeed advisable.