To think that if Girl Guides is for girls, it should allow all girls to be members?

[OrchidInTheSun]

Girl guides have confirmed that if a girl identifies as a boy, they'll kick them out.

So they are no longer a single sex organisation, they are a single gender one.

Mad

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ban-for-girl-guides-who-identify-as-boys-dlj8mjk23

I am not saying any one individuals needs trump another’s

That is exactly what you are doing.

By consistently denying the reality of shared sleep spaces, shared facilities and the religious restrictions of a great many girls currently enjoying Guiding.

What you would like to have in your Shangri-La is irrelevant - it doesn't exist and girls have needs here in the real world. Those are the girls whose needs you are dismissing in favour of a trans child.

Chose pack camp places with more than one room if you have this issue. If there is only one loo on a weekly basis then I would suspect strict Muslim girls would not attend as where do collecting fathers go to the loo? Tradesmen? The incumbent male vicar (if there is one!)?

I am saying that the issue only arises wheb it arises. And can be dealt with.

Re: using separate facilities the Muslim girl may prefer to use separate facilities I don’t know - the solution could be that someone uses separate facilities and the individuals concerned can discuss and decide.

Chose pack camp places with more than one room if you have this issue

Whoosh!

Chose pack camp places with more than one room if you have this issue
For lots of us it's no sleepovers, or use a single room.

I’m merely answering a specific question about Muslim girls.

Feel free to extrapolate. You can raise your concerns have a discussion find a solution in the same way.

"I am saying that the issue only arises wheb it arises. And can be dealt with."

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

"I’m merely answering a specific question about Muslim girls."

No you're not. You are not answering the question of Muslim girls not being allows to join at all.

I am mixed race - Arab and British

Whenever I have been racially abused, it has always been because I look slightly different physically to white people:
my nose especially and my cheekbones are shaped differently;
my skin is slightly darker

it is not because of my accent or food preferences - I was born in the UK, have an RP accent, love roast beef & yorkies
It has never been because of how I eat or what I sleep

Bloody stupid claims here, by white - mostly sheltered mc - people prioritising a tiny subgroup of men and boys.

It won't get to a discussion between Muslims and GG, because Muslims won't even consider sending their daughters to an organisation
that not only permits boys and male leaders,
but won't even allow it to be said that they are, to warn in advance of attending.

This is excluding Muslims from yet another area of society

OT I know, but white mc TRA supporters also ignore the fact that a Muslim woman in an abusive relationship,
even when she goes against cultural norms and leaves,
would try to avoid womens' refuges if she fears she may find transmen masquerading there.

Muslim women would be more reluctant to go for smears, if they fear they may face hostility in wanting only a woman HCP, not a transman

So, the TRA agenda causes multiple exclusions for Muslim women and girls

Swissgemma part of the issue is that parents and other guides are not allowed to know if there are trans leaders or guides in the group or perhaps in the wider activity.
We're not permitted to discuss it, or to find compromises, or anything.
They won't talk about it, no one will.

That's why we're upset.
IMO Guides should say 'we are a mixed sex, mixed gender organisation' (i.e not just for girls) and these are the arrangements/safeguarding we have in place'.
We can then perhaps find out how important a single sex organisation is considered to be, for girls.

and the individuals concerned can discuss and decide

Except they can't, can they?

Parents and girls aren't allowed to know about any boys who identify as girls who will be joining the trips. (Although of course the girls will know instantly the boys show up.)

Guide leaders and volunteers who do raise the issue are thrown out.

No discussion is possible. You don't seem to grasp this.

It really doesn't matter how fluffy and nice you think you are, Gemma. What you are doing is espousing the removal of single sex spaces for girls and women.

Which leads me to 2 questions:

1. Why do you think single sex provision exists at all?
2. Why are you espousing its removal?

To address a number of points:

Phillip Vince is not living his life as a woman he is by definition picking and choosing so outwith my definition. He is also not a trans girl joining guides.

Go camping in tents. Chose accommodation with more than one room. Make accommodations for the girls you have.

we are talking about girls in guides not society as a whole. If a Muslim girl wants to join guides she can. And she can say these are my religious requirements - the troop can then make accommodations as necessary.

and of course most Muslim women would withdrw immediately from any women-only swimming or gym group that suddenly acquires a transman

More excluding of Muslim women and girls, because of the TRA agenda

There are far more Muslims than there are transpeople
So think about the consequences of all these exclusions for society;

don't just sacrifice Muslim women & girls on the TRA altar

i wonder where do non-binaries and gender-fluids belong?

Swissgemma - we don't know if they are doing any of this. Because they are not accepting that they are a mixed sex organisation. They are steaming ahead as if including trans girls doesn't raise any additional issues whatsoever.

And they are excluding trans boys - girls who are also very vulnerable and in need of support, friendship and advice.

"If a Muslim girl wants to join guides she can."

Not any more she can't.

Well, when it comes to Guiding/Scouting they belong in Scouts. Because Scouts is a mixed organisation.

In reality a trans girl joins guides. Her parents are going to mention the penis. This is a child. The trans girl will be aware of her penis and difference. She will not be lobbing it out on the table over dinner. She will want a certain amount of privacy for changing, showering etc. The guiders say, how can we make it work.

'Go camping in tents' - that requires the leaders to have additional permits which they may not have time to qualify for.

'Choose accommodation with more than one room' which is a) pretty hard to find & b) likely to be much more expensive.

Guides often have holidays where they might sleep in eg a church hall- because it's cheap. And even if there are 2 different sleeping rooms, with different sets of toilets - if there are male bodied people there it is very likely that Muslim girls will still not be allowed to go.

The trans girl may well be lesbian. They might fancy the other girls.

They might want to share sleeping accommodation & toilets to 'fit in' with the others.

So they then get aroused by the other girls. And the girls are not supposed to be affected by this?

Re trans boys I have already said existing girls would not be booted out of a supportive troop and guiders in here have agreed. A trans boy would be unlikely to choose guides over scouts and they can join scouts.

This is a child. The trans girl will be aware of her penis and difference. She will not be lobbing it out on the table over dinner. She will want a certain amount of privacy for changing, showering etc.

You're making out that non-trans boys wave their penises around all the time. They usually do not. Girls (and boys) are still entitled to privacy and dignity and to not have to share shower facilities with someone with a penis. It is the penis that makes this child male. It has nothing to do with identity or feeling.

Phillip/Pip Bunce was one of the advisers to the Girl Guides.

Apologies if it's been said before but this policy excludes trans boys and girls who may be gender non conforming. This could mean young lesbians, it's difficult to know because GG and their advisors never give workable definitions.

It also excludes Sikh and Orthodox Jewish girls and looked after girls because foster parents have to adhere to safeguarding policies which apparently girl guides think don't apply to them.

The split of girls and boys (natal) who go to the Tavistock is 70/30.

Many more girls will suffer as a result of this policy than than trans girls who might benefit.

Isn't it strange that all these trans advocate groups like Stonewall and Girls don't seem to have so much concern for trans boys as they do for trans girls?

And let's say that one of the other girls gets their period unexpectedly. Periods are embarrassing when you are young. Most girls don't want anyone else to know they have their period.
But let's say they leak, all over their bed. Now, at the moment, all the other girls will know how that feels. So the girl, though embarrassed, knows that they understand.

A trans girl will not understand, and their prescence will make the girl even more embarrassed.