To think that if Girl Guides is for girls, it should allow all girls to be members?

[OrchidInTheSun]

Girl guides have confirmed that if a girl identifies as a boy, they'll kick them out.

So they are no longer a single sex organisation, they are a single gender one.

Mad

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ban-for-girl-guides-who-identify-as-boys-dlj8mjk23

Even if a girl identifies as a boy, she is still a girl.

Gemma-can you address the issue of Muslim Girls, please?

Because as I have repeatedly said race is not just skin colour. It is a whole spectrum of social constructs.

Gender is self identity as a particular gender.

There is nothing fundamentally female or male.

I drive my car in the same way as my husband. It fundamentally works the same way. When stopped by the police i am referred to by female pronouns as I identify as female. I am driving the car as a woman. Not in a womanly way but as a woman.

How does the policeman know how you identify?

There is nothing fundamentally female or male

How are babies made?

And again. Why is it ok to ostracise a vulnerable child?

Lots of boys are vulnerable. Not allowing them to join an organisation that is not built for them is not "ostracising" them. Boys - including those boys who identify as nonbinary, or as girls - can join the scouts, no bother.

Swissgemma why do you think it is OK to reconfigure an organisation specifically built for girls into an organisation that is no longer available for many, many girls, either because they don't want to share sleeping quarters with boys, or because their parents (understandably) won't let them share sleeping quarters with boys? What about the exclusion and ostracisation of those girls?

If someone identifies as a boy I think the chance of them wanting to be part of a girls only organisation is slim to none so I can’t imagine it would ever be an issue.

OK, apologies scribbly. I wish you luck on challenging this policy. Maybe Helen has gone about it the wrong way, but I also don't think that the possibility of you having to confront this issue head-on is as remote as you think. Although trans children are small in numbers, they really are not insignificant and, sooner or later, you will have a trans member and you will then have to decide how to proceed wrt overnight stays etc.

Personally I would not volunteer for a group that disregarded female safety to such an extent.

I do hope that you are able to change things though. Maybe a letter to the leadership, signed by a large number of leaders would help. I mean they can't sack everyone. You don't have to do things via social media and leave yourself open to abuse, but I think those in charge do have to be made aware of it.

Because as I have repeatedly said race is not just skin colour.

You are wrong. Race is not a social construct and you are very offensive to keep trivialising it in that way and denying the discrimination suffered simply on grounds of biological race. People driving expensive cars are not stopped because their great grandparents came from Barbados and they use grandma's recipe for rice and peas - they are stopped because they are black.

You are doing exactly what TRAs do when they deny and trivialise discrimination on grounds of biological factors of sex.

When stopped by the police i am referred to by female pronouns as I identify as female.

Except you aren't, are you? You are referred to by female pronouns because the police identify you as female, not because you identify yourself as female.

I could identify as a member of the judiciary, but if I'm stopped by the police, they aren't going to call me Your Honour.

Re Muslim girls and guiding - not sure why i am the chosen one to fix all... but I am sure that guiding groups what have both Muslim girls and trans girls can make it work with open discussion.

We are talking about a minority of girl guiding troops. Again small group activities could go some way. People just need to be open with their needs/worries.

Where does the typical 'tomboy' stand in all this? If a girl at age 10 decides to dress the same way as her male friends and ditch her dollies for cars and soldiers do they automatically have a trans label stuck on them now?

Myself and my DD were tomboys growing up. The onset of puberty brought about natural feelings of being feminine and wanting to get married and bear children.

I cannot see why fully grown, and presumably, intelligent, people become hysterical and make provision (that puts others in great discomfort and possible harm) for a child who is most likely going through a very normal and short phase in his/her life.

"Re Muslim girls and guiding - not sure why i am the chosen one to fix all... but I am sure that guiding groups what have both Muslim girls and trans girls can make it work with open discussion."
I addressed you because you seem to be not seeing any problem with this policy. And you are skating over this one. Many Muslim girls will not be allowed to join Guides now. Do you think this is an issue?

People just need to be open with their needs/worries Oh the irony, quite delicious.

Being open with their worries is what got 2 leaders fired!!

Because as I have repeatedly said race is not just skin colour. It is a whole spectrum of social constructs.

Yes, but the important bit is skin colour. It is the skin colour that has led to prejudice over the centuries and which condemned a sector of humanity to be slaves for another sector.

Gender is self identity as a particular gender. There is nothing fundamentally female or male.

We are talking at cross purposes here. I am saying that the root of female oppression has always been biology. Men as a sex class have oppressed women as a sex class. This has nothing to do with identity and everything to do with biology. A person born with XX chromosomes was not permitted to practise law until 1919 after a lengthy court-battle. It mattered not what her identity was. People with XX chromosomes are still woefully underrepresented in most areas of public life. They are susceptible to sexual assault. They have specific biological needs related to pregnancy, menstruation and menopause. Those are the people I am talking about.

The XX chromosome people are comparable to the people with dark skin colour. Throughout history, dark skinned people have been treated in certain ways due to how they were perceived by others. XX chromosome people have too.

Both race and sex have other non-biological aspects- ie culture and gender. These are the ones that members from other groups may choose to identify with. However, that does not MAKE them dark-skinned or having XX chromosomes. And there is no justification for giving rights or protections based on culture or gender because the culture and gender are not the basis of the original oppression. That would be the material reality of having dark skin or having XX chromosomes.

I drive my car in the same way as my husband. It fundamentally works the same way. When stopped by the police i am referred to by female pronouns as I identify as female. I am driving the car as a woman. Not in a womanly way but as a woman.

No, Gemma. You ARE a woman because you have female biology. Your DH is not because he has male biology. How you drive the car is irrelevant.

Seriously how do you define living as a female without resorting to stereotypes?

That is an excellent question. I'd like to hear the response.

but I am sure that guiding groups what have both Muslim girls and trans girls can make it work with open discussion

What open discussion is possible, here?

First of all, when women do discuss it, they are thrown out of GG altogether - what message does that send to the girls still within guides about what "open discussion" is possible, or welcomed, when that's what happens to the adults they look up to?

Secondly, if parents of whatever religious faith, or none, have as a hard rule that their girls cannot share intimate space with boys, and yet GG seems absolutely determined to include boys (while pretending that they are girls), what "open discussion" can square this circle? No amount of discussion can reconcile these two opposing decisions. It will only be "solved" when the girls are driven out of GG altogether.

Oh god not this again. People on MN hate trans people. Trans people are the most likely to suffer from physical violence, suicide, depression. Yet how they feel is totally irrelevant.

There are not many many girls being excluded by this policy.

Trans kids aren't tomboys. I was a tomboy I never felt the need to change my gender.

I am not trivializing racism or discrimination based on colour. I am saying that skin colour isn’t the only aspect of race.

Reproduction is sex not gender. We are discussing gender.

No one will force sleeping quarters. A trans girl (or in reality her parents) will make her current with penis status known. On guide camp as a child my parents didn’t want me to share with a couple of particular girls as they were bullies. My mum had a word with the guide leader. We never shared. So bothered parents says - I am not comfortable with dd sharing with any trans child - what guide leader would force sharing in that situation.

not sure why i am the chosen one to fix all.

You are not. You are are being asked to back up your sweeping assumptions from the bubble with some actual facts.

I am sure is a belief, not a fact based comment. Rather like Iain Duncan Smith "believing" that the new benefits system is better for the disabled when all evidence points to the opposite.

guiding groups what have both Muslim girls and trans girls can make it work with open discussion

You really have no clue do you? Guiding retained girls only units precisely because such girls would be removed. The secretiveness by GG over this and the instruction to conceal this from parents will result in the assumption that all troops may have male bodied children because in the absence of information they have no other choice.

For girls from strict religious backgrounds (and they won't all be Muslim) GG is a rare outlet which parents allow solely because the groups are sex segregated.

But obviously none of that matters to you as you continue to centre the assumed wants of a male bodied trans girl over the needs of all such girls.

Oh god not this again. People on MN hate trans people. Trans people are the most likely to suffer from physical violence, suicide, depression. Yet how they feel is totally irrelevant.

Such a lazy and unintelligent contribution. I do not hate trans people and have never said that. Trans people deserve the same rights as everyone else and should not be subjected to violence and discrimination.

I am saying that trans women are not the same as natal women. They have different biology and as a result a different experience of living in their sexed bodies. They are unhappy with the gendered role ascribed to them. They feel dysphoric because they cannot reconcile the way that society expects them to act as a result of their biology. A small minority may also have body dysmorphia, whereby they hate the way their body appears. They deserve support and understanding and we should also work on challenging these stupid constructed norms that say that men are strong and unfeeling and women are weak and emotional.

However, they are not literally biological females, even if they wish they had been born this way. There are some rights and protections that need to be reserved for biological females and need to exclude trans women on that basis. Intimate spaces, prisons, and refuges are all examples of this.

"There are not many many girls being excluded by this policy."

This policy will exclude Muslim girls.

what does it mean to live as a woman?

I would assume a big part of this is dealing with periods, trying not fall pregnant, trying to fall pregnant, dealing with unplanned pregnancies, miscarriages, infertility, pregnancy, breast feeding, bringing up young children, menopause etc

My mum had a word with the guide leader

Well isn't that nice for you.

The parents WON'T KNOW before the fact. GG has instructed guiders to conceal this information from parents. Hence the default assumption has to be there are male bodied members if you are someone who cannot be in close proximity to male bodies (for religious or abuse reasons).

Why do you persist in prioritising the trans girl over all these other groups? Why is that child more important than their life experiences and problems?

I am not trivializing racism or discrimination based on colour.

Yes you are. Frankly as a white woman you are not the person to make that judgement.

I am not Muslim nor do I know enough about the exact requirements. My point was - more a trans girl will also have requirements - they may too feel uncomfortable with gendered facilities or shared sleeping.

Muslim girl says don’t want to share toilets showers tents. Trans girl says me neither. There is no conflict. Where there is conflict there can be discussion. Perhaps the answer for that particular troop is the trans girl or the Muslim girl using a particular set of facilities and each showing redirect to the other. In another troop the solution may be different. No two people are the same.