To think that if Girl Guides is for girls, it should allow all girls to be members?

[OrchidInTheSun]

Girl guides have confirmed that if a girl identifies as a boy, they'll kick them out.

So they are no longer a single sex organisation, they are a single gender one.

Mad

www.thetimes.co.uk/article/ban-for-girl-guides-who-identify-as-boys-dlj8mjk23

^^ ah sorry, see that's been cleared up

Swiss where do you stand on Pips Bunce?

Curious, no, sorry I disagree, GirlGuides do actively encourage us to talk about gender. Here for example is the resource for Guiders about talking about gender with Rainbows. Now you can disagree with the information and suggested activities, but as a GC critical Guider I can see no problem with using that material to facilitate a discussion with girls as young as five or six about what being a girl actually means.

Actively criticising the policies on social media has resulted in the expulsions. Again, to be clear, I fully support Helen for what she has done.

I wonder who the TRA baton will be passed to next?

Swiss where do you stand on Pips Bunce

I know where I would like to stand on Bunce.

I wonder who the TRA baton will be passed to next

Wouldn't batons be triggering? Maybe they can pass handbags.

If I wear a trouser suit and declare from this day on, all day everyday, I am a man and I intend to transition. I am a man. You should respect my wishes to be referred to as Ryan and he.

But why?

Scribbly I know, but wasn't it a closed group, someone went in as a mole? Or something equally daft! Helen has posted something long those lines, I believe.

Either way, what she did was the right thing and what GG is doing now is wrong.

I don't really care what solution they cope up with, but hey cannot continue to flout the EA2010 and to persist in keeping the real nature of the organisation 'secret'. They need to be far more transparent about what their policy means and to stop trying to minimise it, shift 'blame'. And yes, I have read their latest epistle, it isn't at all reassuring!

@WomanAKAAdultHumanFemale your posts have made my day

Tbh curious, your level of debate is somewhat more nuanced than others. Unfortunately, I have been debating multiple people all day and increasingly strains of argument are being merged and crossed.

This thread is about guides and vulnerable children.

I agreed that a feminine man is still a man. (With an unfortunate but I hope obvious typo) and we do agree with the respect point clearly. Where we as in me and curious, disagree is how far tha acceptance goes. Now you are I suspect arguing against a small subset of trans people - I suspect in real life our opinions aren’t that far apart. I have also advocated discussion and open debate - but seem to have more generally been expected to have answers and results of that debate without having that debate.

It is difficult to have these debates because as has been proved today people generally pile on based on a requoted out of context post. Also, you may not but others resort to insult.

I have not questioned anyone’s viewpoint. Merely given mine. I have not required anyone to prove their arguments, define their positions. Solve all the issues in a single post. I have simply disagreed. Been called ignorant, hard of thinking, hard of reasoning, a plant pot, a cult member, stupid, unable to read etc etc (not all quotes but paraphrased).

I have offered ideas and solutions, acknowledged where I am lacking knowledge, offered definitions where pushed and stated my own beliefs as my own not some inalienable truth.

I offered debate. Discussion.

This is so all fucking confusing. To be honest - i would not feel comfortable with my daughter if she was in the girl guides getting dressed/changed (if the situation calls for it) in front of a boy who identifies himself as female - he is still male no matter what he identifies himself as because science tells me so - but this is my own view - obvs others might see it differently.

I have been clear on phillip bunce and was ironically accused of being transphobic. But as far as I am aware he doesn’t want to be guide.

Thank you, BreezeButter! That is very kind of you to say.

Swiss you seem intent on referring to male and female as something other than man or woman.

Look up the male reproductive system and then the female reproductive system. Spot the difference?

Should little girls be brainwashed into thinking the dangly things between that Girl Guiders legs is a foof??

The problem is that in 99% of life, being trans makes absolutely no difference to anyone else, and obviously trans people should be free to live their lives peacefully, unharrassed and protected by the same rights and laws as non trans people. But in the 1% of cases, like Guides and sport, two sets of rights run up against each other and are completely incompatible. Guides giving right of admission to trans girls automatically takes away the rights of Muslim girls. There just isn't room for compromise. I suppose the sensible thing to do is say that trans girls do have an alternative option and Muslim girls don't....but I can't see that going down well. There isn't actually a solution. So I don't know what should be done, frankly.

f I wear a trouser suit and declare from this day on, all day everyday, I am a man and I intend to transition. I am a man

No you arent. You’re a woman in a trouser suit. Your intention is an internal feeling that does not alter manifest reality.

we need to take people as they are. ah. Well this is where we disagree. If you want to wear a trouser suit and call yourself Ryan then I’ll call you (the generic you of course) Ryan. But you are not a man

The clash here comes from you (and again, the generic you) imposing your belief. You may believe very sincerely that you’re a man. That’s your belief. But I see and can objectively confirm you’re a woman. I can see reality. For you to then demand I alter my beliefs, to create a divide between what I can see is real and what I am allowed to say is real, is wrong. In fact, it’s abusive.

There are posters on this board who hold very sincere faiths. I’m an atheist. The civilised thing for us to do is to allow any belief or lack of it without it affecting each other. My forcing them to recant their faith would be abusive. Them forcing me to convert me, and then have my kids brought ininbthe faith would be abusive.

And so we have a secular society. Religion is allowed. The religious individuals are protected. The ideology is not protected.

I have been clear on my position re sex and gender. I have clearly stated that reproductive differences are sex. I have not suggested anything to the contrary.

Sex/biology is one thing and gender another, in my opinion.

You seem fixated on merging the two. I am not.

And ffs a trouser suit? Are we regressive enough to be saying that your clothes determine your sex? This regression is so, so stultifying and backwards.

Beautifully put, Bowl. I always enjoy your posts because they are well-written and argued.

If I wear a trouser suit and declare from this day on, all day everyday, I am a man and I intend to transition. I am a man. You should respect my wishes to be referred to as Ryan and he

You want be called Ryan that's fine...I'll pander to your whims and call you Ryan.

This is not what the threads about though is it?

You seem fixated on merging the two. I am not.

No, merging them is the opposite of my position

They are linked in that gender is what society expects of each sex. But while sex exists objectively, gender in a way does not - it’s s social construct.

No one can change sex. To say that surface clothing can do do is regressive in the extreme. To demand that others play along with a beliefctyey can objectively see runs counter to reality, is wrong.

@bertrandrussell which is why I have advocated debate and discussion. An attempt to find work arounds. We are talking about a few troops with the Muslim/trans issue.

I too an am atheist and but I defend everyone’s right to a belief whether that be religion or gender driven.

You seem fixated on merging the two I think you have misunderstood. ALL of the GC posters mean the exact opposite, see my previous definitions.

And it isn't the same as religion as, in this country, no religion takes away the rights of any group in order to satisfy itself (that is England, NI is getting there).

I agree re clothing it is regressive. Hence why I said if I wear a trouser suit I am not a man.

It is not about surface clothing I have not said that. It is about an inate sense of self.

A man in a dress is a man in a dress. A man in a dress who chooses day in day out to be a woman is a woman. Regardless of biological sex. In my opinion.

You may disagree. I shall not be swayed.

I advocate discussion. However, in the opinion of the majority of this thread to think other than the majority of this thread is not a valid opinion warranting discussion.

The issue is the definition of gender and identity. I don’t think it is linked to biology.

Re religion, I didn’t conflate the two.