To think that I should be told if my daughters girl guiding leader is actually a man.

[Angryresister]

Apparently it is policy now to not give parents information about male people who self identify as women ,as leaders, or the information that a boy will now be part of the group. This goes against all safeguarding procedures and there will be a major scandal when dangerous preditors take advantage of this policy to get to access girls . The organisation is also sacking volunteers who raise questions. There seem to be fewer and fewer girl only activities available these days

No, you can be 121 but the door must remain open at all times

You're making it up as you go along. What if a child is disclosing abuse to a teacher? Y'know, that thing you don't think ever happens to kids.

The vast maj of parents and girls won't be bothered in the slightest.

Let's see some evidence for this broad generalisation peony.

Even if Guiders aren't one to one with girls - this can be one leader with more than one girl OR two male leaders with one or more girls.

Peony is deliberately ignoring the fact that schools and Scouts KNOW there are male children and leaders present. GG is not allowing us to know this.

I think Peony may have admitted though that boys/men who identify as girls/women are actually male. Maybe? So there might be hope yet.

Not if it involved undressing particularly behind closed doors. You'd be insane to put yourself in that position.

The vast maj of parents and girls won't be bothered in the slightest. have a clue this is going on because GG's website still says it's single sex, and most people think "trans girls" are girls who identify as trans.

Fixed that for you.

Consider this:

Children are being used here. It’s pretty easy to stand up and say no to adult males who want in to female spaces. They don’t like it and they get aggressive but hey ho, you can argue.
But when you are presented with a kid the reaction is different.

They’re a child. You’d be a monster to deny them, right? They’re kids! Poor children. But these kids are being used as the sharp edge of a wedge designed to remove all women only services and spaces.
The organisations advising groups like the nhs, the police, schools and allegedly guides advocate hormonal and medical intervention as young as possible for children, leading to sterilisation and mutilating surgery whilst simultaneously pushing for adults to be de medicalised.
Think about that, and what it implies.

An entire generation is having their boundaries eroded. Girls have no right to say no to this - if they do, they’re the ones at fault. So no more women only changing rooms. Or guide camp. Or saunas. Or pools to swim in. Or prisons. Or anything. All these spaces will become unisex.

Scouting is mixed sex. It’s a great movement and it has safeguards in place. Guiding is female only. It cannot be done by gender feelings, it’s by sex.

Oh but you meanie! Look at this child who will be hurt by this! A child! Don’t look at the adult males who will be allowed free access without pesky safeguarding, look at the child! Bigot! TRANSPHOBE!

The naivety here is stunning. Look closer.,

Not if it involved undressing particularly behind closed doors. You'd be insane to put yourself in that position.

A predatory opportunist using the girl guides entire disinterest in safeguarding if someone identifies as female might well want to put himself in that position, however. THAT is our point.

You'd be insane to put yourself in that position.

Except of course that it happens. Maybe not in guides yet but when women ask for females to do their personal care and they get Candi who used to be known as Carl.

Women and girls deserve to be able to say no to male bodied people sharing their accommodation and being in intimate situations with them. Full stop. No exceptions.

So Peony what do I do as a leader if a 6 year old with mild SEN has wet herself so badly she can't get changed, because she's upset and her clothes are clinging to her?
Leave her in wet clothes for the remainder of the sleepover, or for an hour till her parents can come to change her?
Or go in with my First Aider and her best friend and change her?

Or what if a Brownie is up in the night and drops her pyjamas in a wet patch in the loos and comes and knocks on the leaders' door in just her pants?
Bar the door and say NOOO I can't see you, or wake up another leader and quietly usher her back to the dorm together, torch in hand to find spares?

On a Scout camp, you'd send in the leader of the same sex (and another adult or at a minimum another child or two).
At a Guide event, if you were assuming that all girls and leaders are the same sex, you would deal with it under safeguarding rules (2 leaders or 2 girls minimum, no 1:1) but you DO NOT KNOW if those leaders or girls are female.

P3onyPenny

You obviously know nothing about grooming tactics. It never starts with undressing alone together. It starts when a child is told that someone is a trusted adult, when that person is put in a position of responsibility over that child. This gives that person leverage to groom the child into staying silent and compliant.

And grooming has an automatic link with trans people because....... ?

P3onyPenny this is the point.
Are the Guides putting in special procedures for trans girl Guides and trans women leaders & volunteers? Are they required to have sex segregated spaces for changing, sleeping etc? Or are they just being treated as if they are female, and safeguarding, privacy etc being ignored? Are girl Guides who feel uncomfortable or unsafe being allowed & supported to express their feelings or are they being marginalised and blamed?
This is the difference when we can't talk about who is male and who is female.

Do some people not remember those teenage days at all? Feeling embarrassed to change even in front of other girls, never mind boys (who have changed to girls)

And grooming has an automatic link with trans people because....... ?

It's the breaking down of natural boundaries. The encouragement to ignore 'spider-sense'. The gaslighting. Being told 'it's all fine' by those in authority.

No one thinks transwomen = predator (seriously how many times do we have to state this ), but privacy and dignity, awareness of others' feelings, encouraging an environment where everyone feels comfortable disclosing something they're uncomfortable with, and yes, breaking down gender stereotypes, are absolutely fucking vital to safeguarding and preventing future Jimmy Saviles, Rotherham's, BBC etc

It will hopefully be rare, but it's blatantly obvious that some "incidents" will take place. Are you comfortable then P3onypenny that these few girls will be collateral damage. When does it become uncomfortable for you, 2 girls 3 girls?

Sorry but I think that's tosh.A massive contradiction in one post. I also think this whole issue is being used as an excuse to spew trans hatred. I'll leave you to continue with your bile.So pleased you don't speak for the Guiding Association and they have taken the stance they have. I'd have seriously considered removing my child if they'd have had a similar stance to some of the posters on here.

Gosh, does that mean we're not going to get any actual evidence for your claim that the vast majority of parents and girls won't care? I'm as shocked as I am devastated.

P3onyPenny

Grooming has nothing to do with trans people but everything to do with why the golden rule in all situations involving responsibility for the safety of children is openness and transparency.

Alarm bells start ringing when an organisation suddenly decides to allow a loophole to form whereby men can claim to be transwomen and be put in a trusted position of responsibility over a group of young girls. And no one is allowed to question them on their motives or past without fear of accusations of bigotry.

Can you see how this goes against safeguarding procedures? How do we tell the difference between the transwomen and the opportunistic, predatory men?

For example, what would you expect Girl Guides to do if a ‘transwoman’ applied to be a guide leader. But this person was not presenting outwardly as a woman. Should they accept the person as a female leader? Remembering that it is illegal to request to see the person’s GRC anyway.

How would you decide if that person was genuine? Would it be worth taking the risk that they weren’t?

Sorry but I think that's tosh.A massive contradiction in one post. I also think this whole issue is being used as an excuse to spew trans hatred. I'll leave you to continue with your bile.

And that is how grooming happens - because people will not listen when those with massive professional experience (like Lisa Muggeridge - or me) explain how it happens and why safeguarding is vital and they stick their fingers in their ears to it all because being "woke" is more important to them.

spew trans hatred

Oh please. Posters are calmly outlining their safeguarding worries and instead of engaging with them you start with the TRANSPHOBE stuff. If you have a cogent argument as to why allowing men into a previously female only activity without putting proper safeguarding in place like every other mixed sex group/activity do then give it. Yelling bigot isn’t an argument, it’s a thought terminating cliche.

If you’ve got data, bring it to the table and argue.

(What is it with the spewing by the way? It’s always with the spewing, the transphobia..)

Peony, even if you think no girl is ever going to be assaulted as a result of this policy, do you understand that female only time matters hugely to some girls?

Girls who start their periods at residential camp
Girls who have been victims of sexual assault
Girls who are extremely shy about their changing bodies
Girls living with domestic abuse at home
Girls from religious backgrounds who aren't allowed much of a social life because their families are mistrustful of anyone outside their communities
Girls who've suffered fgm
Girls with disabilities which mean they need a lot of personal care
Girls who've been bullied or negged by boys

Sex segregation mattered enormously to me when I was at school. I look at the classes or clubs I did which were girls only - those were the only times I relaxed and felt safe and grew in confidence. I wish trans people well but trans girls are male. There are very few female only spaces. The Guides offered something very important until now.

Peony doesn't have data, only anecdotes.

If the transwomen considered themselves women enough to get rid of the penis there wouldn't be a problem. No vulnerable girl/female should have to have their female only space invaded by a bloke with a penis. Why does anyone think they should?

Me too, gendercritter. The female-only space was so important to me having been assaulted as a child.

I am now a Brownie leader and the mother of a Guide, and GG are so wrong on this. Safeguarding is crucial - if my son or husband come on a sleepover they will sleep separately from the rest of us, like we female leaders sleep separately from the children. I don’t understand why we can’t have safeguarding like the Scouts. It doesn’t make sense from an organisation that claims to defy gender stereotyping and to encourage members to take action and be heard.