To think that I should be told if my daughters girl guiding leader is actually a man.

[Angryresister]

Apparently it is policy now to not give parents information about male people who self identify as women ,as leaders, or the information that a boy will now be part of the group. This goes against all safeguarding procedures and there will be a major scandal when dangerous preditors take advantage of this policy to get to access girls . The organisation is also sacking volunteers who raise questions. There seem to be fewer and fewer girl only activities available these days

PinkPupz were the girls at Brownies & Guides happy to have a strange man around, sleeping in the same room as them and talking to them about body confidence, puberty and sexual harassment?

Gender Im simply at a loss as to understand why a trans person instantly equals a predator. If it’s becsuse you’re saying they’re male and all males are attracted to girls ( and are thus a risk)then surely by your logic the same must apply to lesbians. Frankly I don’t think being trans means you are attracted to girls and by default pose a risk, ditto lesbians. I am simply pointing out some very dubious logic.

Gender Im simply at a loss as to understand why a trans person instantly equals a predator. If it’s becsuse you’re saying they’re male and all males are attracted to girls ( and are thus a risk)then surely by your logic the same must apply to lesbians. Frankly I don’t think being trans means you are attracted to girls and by default pose a risk, ditto lesbians. I am simply pointing out some very dubious logic.

That's not what people mean at all. Would you throw out safeguarding designed to protect children from predators on the grounds that it's implying that all men are paedophiles? This is about safeguarding - and the fact that reducing safeguarding opens the doors to predators who will use that way in. You need to examine who has been pushing for this...

Goodness, P3ony, are you not reading the thread? Nobody is saying that a trans person equals a predator. Nobody at all.

What people are saying is:

1. Almost all sexual violence comes from men and boys. It's therefore not just offensive but also quite wrong to say that lesbian girls pose a threat to other girls.

1. Most teenage boys are not sexual predators (I hope). But some are. Sexual violence between adolescents, even between children, is very far from unknown, and it's almost always boys attacking girls. It would be very surprising indeed if not one single boy who IDs as trans was ever also a sexual predator. Why would being trans cancel out any tendency to be a sexual predator?

1. Sexual violence isn't about attraction. It's about power. It's about humiliating and hurting another person. You seem to be muddled about the risks here. There is a risk to girls from sexual predators and there is also a risk of perfectly normal consensual sex happening at camp, which would be inappropriate whether it was between two girls or a girl and a trans girl. The latter has the additional risk of causing pregnancy and sexually transmitted diseases.

1. That's without even addressing the right of girls to have privacy and a female-only space.

Has anyone said all trans girls are predators? Is anyone saying all men are attracted to girls? Perhaps engage with what people say instead of the rubbish you assume they’re saying because you want to disagree.

What we know is most sexual violence is committed by males to women and children and other men. Men who commit sexual violence can identify as men, women and it now even appears babies and dogs and all sorts. None of those men wear a helpful sign saying they wish to commit sexual violence so we know who they are. How can we know a man who commits sexual violence is not going to say he’s a woman to gain access to girls in a vulnerable state? We do not and we cannot, so we must have robust safeguarding in place to limit this scenario happening. There are clear issues with gg safeguarding. They could choose to sort it out but they aren’t. Why is that?

Peony - would you husbands brother or father use a communal changing room with teenaged girls at the local high school ? No I’m guessing not.

Is this because they are paedophiles? Don’t they trust themselves?

Why dont you ask them ? Ill bet you they say

“ No way, I would be embarassed and so would they. What kind of decent man would do that ? Everyone would think I was a pervert. Imagine if my neighbours kid was there ? “

So its NOT becaue of misandry . Its because of privacy and dignity. and because decent men know EXACTLY what type of man would do this .

They know that honest men have to be kept out otherwise theres no way of protecting women and girls from harm. NAMALT that but some are.

The man on the Clapham onmibius has no problem understanding this.

So girls really shouldn’t be attending scouts, they aren’t safe.

Not when they have David Challenor as a scout leader, no.

Girls and boys are perfectly safe at scouts due to safeguarding

And when you don’t have proper safeguarding you get David Challenor. Are you getting it yet p3ony ?

It may have already been mentioned up thread but I couldn't read anymore of the ignorant bigoted posts but ADULT volunteers NEVER share sleeping facilities with young people so all those bleating about predatory males using this as an opportunity need to shut up and inform yourselves of the facts NOT what you have gleaned from the daily fail and other biased source's. The point is that if all safeguarding policies are followed there WILL NOT be any opportunity regardless of the adult identifying as male,female or anything else. As for any young people who identify as girls I think they probably have a bit more to worry about thanany sexual activity and i'm guessing it will be them who might prefer some privacy so they can have a break from bigoted arseholes and enjoy themselves with no judgements. I think it's great that girl guiding are providing such a safe space and good riddance to those who had to make such a song and dance over what is essentially a non issue for everyone else apart from the young people, their family andif they want ot tell them their guiders.

My dd doesn’t strip off and need a changing room at guides. They are doing activities in a hall altogether.

dd doesn’t strip off and need a changing room at guides. They are doing activities in a hall altogether.

She never goes on residentials? That's a shame.

Well then your dd is fine. Great. What about the girls who do choose to go to camp?

Nobody thinks all trans people are predators, which is why nobody is suggesting that bio females identifying as males shouldn't be allowed in (well, except the Guides themselves maybe). The risk is from males, which is why a lot of single sex provision for females exists in the first place. Not all trans people are male, thus this is not about a risk being posed by trans people per se. And people blithely telling us that certain groups of males are no risk is meaningless. You simply aren't in a position to give those assurances.

As for scouts, it's up to parents what they choose to do, but unless bio girls and bio boys are expected to share accommodation etc there, then the example is irrelevant. Are they?

This question still hasn't been answered. Why is not ok for teen boy to sleep next to teen girl at home yet is OK at GG?

Ditto Guides then.

Re camp safeguarding is always ongoing and on a case by case basis. Pretty sure Guide leaders are intelligent enough to deal with all sorts of safeguarding adequately enough.

As I said my dd has never ever had to strip off and change at Guides. If that is your concern you're barking up the wrong tree. For those who chose to go on camp on the few occasions that happens there will be a whole host of safe guarding procedures like there is on any residential anywhere.

Found this page on the Guides website about their survey from 2017, you can download the whole thing at the bottom of the page:

www.girlguiding.org.uk/social-action-advocacy-and-campaigns/research/girls-attitudes-survey?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI1_Pfz_rY3QIVDJ3tCh0QLQxlEAAYASAAEgLU2PD_BwE

But one section stood out for me, screen shots attached.

And as for the 80-odd % of girls who don't want to discriminate, I'm sure I read a similar figure in a guides survey of girls who don't want boys in guides.

It may have already been mentioned up thread but I couldn't read anymore of the ignorant bigoted posts but ADULT volunteers NEVER share sleeping facilities with young people so all those bleating about predatory males using this as an opportunity need to shut up and inform yourselves of the facts NOT what you have gleaned from the daily fail and other biased source's

If you read the thread you'll have seen several people saying that they use church halls etc. and DO share sleeping areas and toilets

And I linked to the policy that tells us what to do if this is the case.

Ah well, if one person's DD doesn't strip off in church halls, that means no Guide ever goes on overnight trips with other Guides. Glad that's settled.

For those who chose to go on camp on the few occasions that happens there will be a whole host of safe guarding procedures like there is on any residential anywhere.

Except there isn't is there now? And leaders who ask about the safeguarding aspect are booted out.

I agree most organisations in charge of youth groups do have a host of safeguarding procedures when on residentials. Why don't GG any more?

Why would any Guides be stripping off in church halls during the 2 hours they are at guides?

Re loos they are the same loos used for any activity in said hut/hall.

I dont think anyone has suggested that apart from you penny

Could be wrong though...its a big thread

Unlikely in a church hall but you do tend to take off your clothes if you go swimming. When I've taken Rainbows swimming the only way to get them changed without tears is to take them in a communal area with adult women.
You also need to change/wash/shower if you fall in a river/pond - there's a boating pond at two venues I've done a day activity at.
Rainbows sometimes need help with toileting (more "I need paper" than "wipe me" but they may also need help changing after a serious accident).
All things that, in a mixed setting e.g. school, only female (that's actual female, not feeling like female) teachers would do.